What aren’t the airlines saying out loud? How will tech and AI shape our travels? And what’s the future of award travel look like? Those questions are big enough for the guys to bring in another expert to tackle them: Zach Griff, a longtime travel writer, airline and loyalty insider, and the author of the From the Tray Table newsletter. Together, Gunnar, Kyle & Zach analyze the changing loyalty landscape; Zach takes you all inside splashy airline events, and he gives his best travel tips - including his favorite tech and his favorite (and least favorite) travel destinations.
What aren’t the airlines saying out loud? How will tech and AI shape our travels? And what’s the future of award travel look like? Those questions are big enough for the guys to bring in another expert to tackle them: Zach Griff, a longtime travel writer, airline and loyalty insider, and the author of the From the Tray Table newsletter. Together, Gunnar, Kyle & Zach analyze the changing loyalty landscape; Zach takes you all inside splashy airline events, and he gives his best travel tips - including his favorite tech and his favorite (and least favorite) travel destinations.
Join the conversation! Sign up for the free Thrifty Traveler Podcast Slack community today.
00:00 - Exposing airline talking points and jargon
03:30 - Hamed welcomes us back to the show from Tokyo!
04:00 - Inside airline media events & announcements
09:40 - The present and future of airline loyalty programs
18:20 - Zach Griff’s favorite Thrifty Traveler Premium deals!
21:45 - Diving into Zach’s career and From the Tray Table
28:15 - Is United overtaking Delta? Or is it just vibes?
34:30 - Why travelers should care about Apple and tech
41:50 - Rapid fire: Best gadgets, best (& worst) destinations & more
49:15 - Listener Question: Outlining our award travel ski strategy
53:30 - On the Spot: Would you ever move based on an airline hub?
Produced and edited by Sylvia Thomas
Video editing by Kyle Thomas
Show music: “All That” by Benjamin Tissot
Yo, welcome to the show. I'm Gunner, that's Kyle, but with us in the middle seat is a guy you might recognize from his eight years of covering travel at The Points Guy, and from his excellent From the Tray Table newsletter. But most likely, you recognized him as the guy you walked by in first class on your most recent United flight on your way back to economy. It's Zach Griff. Zach, thank you so much for joining us in the Minneapolis studio. How's it going? You know, Gunner, first of all, it's, it's great to be here. Um, and I, I really appreciate the very warm introduction. That said, I flew in this morning and I was seated in 7C on United. I was number four on the wait list, and that just seems to be my new home these days. And I know we'll get into that, but, but, but y- maybe you're passing me now in, like, extra legroom. It's, it's no longer always first class. Okay. Well, that's good to know. I'm a man of the people, you know? Absolutely. Absolutely you are. Welcome. All right, uh, Kyle and Zach, you are both very well connected. You guys both talk to a lot of travel industry people. You digest a lot of travel industry news. What is your least favorite piece of airline jargon? What's something that airline executives say all the time that maybe rubs you the wrong way or, you know, your least favorite talking point that you get from, uh, reading press releases and hearing executives talk about themselves all the time? I mean, I think for me, one of the things that I just see constantly is the word premium. I, I call it the P word now. And I, I'm sorry if I stole yours because, uh, that's just gotta be, like, the least- I was, I will say for the record, I was not gonna say the P word, so you're all good there. Oh, good. Okay. Well, well, then I'm good there. But that said, it, it's, it's so frustrating because I think, you know, it totally makes sense. I, I totally see where the industry is going. I see where the financials are, that, you know, premium, premium leisure, it all, like, the investment in that area makes sense. I just think that- What, what we see from executives, what we're seeing from these press releases is they're saying premium. They don't actually know what that means. Um, you know, they're saying, "Okay, well now the lounge food is premium." It's like, really? Because it's now cheese cubes displayed in a different way, uh, and so n- that, that's like, you know, premium? I don't know. Uh, and so I think that, you know, I'm, I'm totally for premium being like what this industry and where, where things are moving. I- it's, uh, really the challenge, and this is what I speak to, you know, when I go to these events and, and speak to executives, I say, you know, really you have to be convinced around what is the premium that you're building and building towards? Because if you're not, then you just don't have a strategy. J- you're just copying what other people are writing. Right. Exactly. It's also like, could you please just explain to me what the premium is here? Yeah. I mean, it is like a cop-out press release thing, right? Like, everyone just has their one premium something. It's just a thing that airlines have to say now, whether they're actually doing anything substantially differently or not. The P word is, is high up my list. Uh, the worst one though is giving consumers, quote, "more choice." Ugh. That is just- Yeah ... a code word for ripping people off now. Every single time you hear an airline or a hotel chain say that they're giving customers more choice, it means that they are passing the buck onto you, every single time, no question. Absolutely. I would say also anything bespoke. Yeah. No more bespoke, please. Yeah, yeah, yeah, bespoke. We're, we're all tired of bespoke. It's almost like, you know, these airlines or whomever is writing these press releases, uh, went to school together, or they're using the same AI chat bot or something that is regurgitating the exact same jar- jargon every single time. All right, well, no more jargon here on today's show. Today, we are talking to a travel insider about covering the industry, the future of loyalty programs, a little United versus Delta, and all the tips and tricks Zack Griff uses to travel more for less. All that and more. Greetings from Tokyo National Stadium. Welcome back to the Thrifty Traveler Podcast Okay, welcoming us back this week was Hamed from the Tokyo National Stadium in Japan. What a cool setting. Thank you for checking in during your trip, Hamed. I'm very curious as to how you got onto the field there to take that video. That was very, very cool. All right, let's get into something hot and something cold, a look at the good and the bad news out there for travelers this week. And this week, we're leaning into Zach's expertise here, and I wanna start with something I think most travelers would think is hot. So as a travel insider, you get to travel a lot to these big, splashy media events like we saw a few weeks ago in Seattle for Alaska's unveiling of the Aurora Suites, the new Lahuku Suites on the A330, and their new MAX 10 aircraft, and so much more. There was so much in that big announcement. I wanna touch on this event in particular in a second, but what are these events like? Like, take, take us inside what it's like to be there. Because very importantly, we don't get invites. So we can't tell people ourselves. Well, I am sorry to report that me coming on your show probably won't change that. Um Well, we'll see. I hopefully, you know, like, you know, maybe. But, um, but that said, it, it's interesting. So, so first of all, it comes down to knowing the right people. So if, if you were looking to get an invite, that's what I would recommend. Make sure, b- And it's not about obviously knowing the right people. It's also, you know, making sure you're f- you're friendly with them- Yeah ... and, and all those things. But for everyone out there, so it usually starts with, uh, you, you get your invitation a week or two before. Ideally, they tell you kind of a save the date beforehand. A lot of times there's, there, you know, I've booked a trip or something. I get the media invite. For instance, United had a big one. It was, uh, August time, and my wife and I were, already had booked in Greece, and the United team, shockingly, as you might expect, were like, "Where's Zach Griff? Like, why isn't he here?" Uh, they, they followed up with me like four times, like, "Are you coming? Are you-" And I said, you know, "No, you never sent me a save the date," so I didn't go. Um, a lot of times, you know, you get to these events, actually beforehand, I think a lot of people don't realize this, is, you know, folks like me and us, like, we get embargoed materials. So that means that, you know, we'll have access to the news sometimes before they even, you know, reveal it, and that helps us prepare, certainly helps me prepare, whether it's an Instagram video, a newsletter feature, um, so that I can, you know, make sure that I have my grounding and not kind of just come in blind, uh, to the event. But so I get to the event It's often some type of reveal with the executives, ideally, you know, CEO, chief, maybe commercial officer, with a welcome and some remarks. When there are Q&A sessions, uh, sometimes they're pre-scripted, which are not Q&A sessions. Yep. Um, and, uh, I will even call out Alaska that, that they asked for questions beforehand, and they said like, "Oh no, we're not gonna screen them." But of course you're gonna screen them. Like, that- that's your job. Yeah. So, so I, I don't submit questions in advance for those things. Um, I'll ask my questions live to get, like, the real take, and then it's, like, the experiential part. And I think, like, that's really the value of me or, you know, folks in our industry really going and showcasing what the experience is like. What, you know, for instance, in Alaska's event, I got to sit in the new Aurora suites, the new Lehoku suites. I got to try the new food. And again, anything soft like the food, the drinks, like, that will not translate from the fancy event into the air. Right. And, and, and I think everyone recognizes that. Same with, like, these hotels that have these, like, mock-up ca- uh, you know, rooms in, like, their headquarters. Like, no, that's not going to be, like, what the experience is like. But a- at least for the hard things like the mock-ups, the seat mock-ups and things, like, that's a real good indicator. And sitting in them, experiencing them and then I ... For anyone who's out there who, who, you know, follows me or whatnot, I'm working my butt off at these things. I am, you know, Instagram, editing my video and getting it up as soon as possible, trying to write at the same time, editing pictures. It's only me, and it is, like, a lot of work, but, you know, the reward is obviously then, you know, I actually love what I do, so yeah. Yeah. A lot of hustling, I assume. Yeah, you touched on the experiential part and how important that is. The, to me, the, the other part that really stands out is that ability to get these executives off script- Yeah ... and get information out of them that maybe didn't make the press release- Of course ... intentionally. What's something you learned from Alaska that wasn't in that press release? Uh, that's a fantastic, fantastic point. Uh, and yeah, I didn't even mention this, happy hours and, and the networking that happens kind of on the sidelines. Um, it is my expectation that the BILT partnership will end. Uh, the, uh, the BILT, uh, transfer, whether that's end, scale back, something like that, um, you know, I can't say for sure, but, but that is definitely kinda word on the street. What, what makes you say that? And I know you probably need to be careful based upon where you learned that from, but give... I mean, 'cause l- let's be honest, you're hearing it here second. People heard it first from your newsletter. Now we're hearing it here. Yeah. But tell us a little bit about what makes you say that. Yeah, so I mean, it's p- part of the big announcement, right, is that they're gonna i- unlock, uh, points transfers. Obviously, exclus- uh, exclusive credit card partner in the US will be Bank of America, which makes sense given their co-brand relationship. But they're, you know, adding more global banks, so they're gonna add likely a bank in Canada, maybe Australia, some other places where key markets that they're flying. But if you think about, like, the evolution of a program like Bilt, I mean, maybe we wanna throw in Rove for, for, for, f- you know, maybe some of these other kind of loyalty currencies that are adjacent to credit cards but not exactly. Uh, they're, they're, they struggle because, you know, just look at, like, what happened with Hyatt and, and, and, and, and with Bilt, the same thing. My expectation is that, and we can talk about this, but these relationships are becoming more and more exclusive. It is baked into the contracts around points transfer because, you know, if you can accrue maybe Bilt points faster than you could your Bank of America flexible currency, then what's the incentive for someone to pick up a Bank of America card? Or even an Alaska co-brand card- Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah ... which is what they all really want. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. Yeah, okay, I think this is a good pivot. So I wanna talk about something cold now and talk about kinda the current state and future of loyalty programs. I don't know if this is necessarily something cold, this is kinda where I just slotted it in our rundown, but when I think of the current state of airline loyalty programs, hotel loyalt- loyalty programs, I see a lot of pay to play, as we call it, where, you know, you have to be a credit card holder or a status holder to get the best award rates or the best availability. That seems to be, like, the prevailing wind here. Is this where every airline program is eventually going, Zach? Yeah, I mean, no question. Like, like, full stop, uh, every single airline will eventually have a co-brand basically requirement to be, uh, whether it's an elite flyer, whether that's access to, you know, savor award space. I think that this industry is so tied... And it's not even around, you know, having the card in the wallet. Maybe it's like, uh, for me, I have a lot of these cards in my wallet. I don't actually spend or transact on them, but I have them because they're the requirement, the new requirement now to, you know, unlocking the space and the discounts. Yeah, I call them bench cards. Yeah, yeah. I, I like that. I like that. Um, I might borrow that. Um, but so they're, they're my bench cards, but I think the airlines want them to become top of, top of wallet for so many people, and they are. I mean, look at, like, the SkyMiles portfolio. Look at, you know, like, their, their co-brands. Like the United, what they've done, United has basically forced you. You are a second-tier United flyer if you don't have a United co-brand, and it works for them. Uh, like, look at the numbers. So I, it's sad that it's here to stay in, in some sense because then that means I can't, you know, book Aeroplan, or use my Aeroplan points to book United Awards because they n- or the premium ones because they no longer release them to, to partners. That said, I think for folks like, you know, who are maximizers who are listening, having these co-brand cards not only is it becomes a non-negotiable, but it gives you a leg up to someone who doesn't. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you, I mean, you touched on this before, the changes that we've seen, not just with United but, you know, especially Hyatt with Chase and now Bilt. I think it's becoming very clear that these loyalty programs are deciding or maybe just realizing that they're losing out on, like, a chance to build true loyalty- Yeah ... by requiring you to get that Hyatt credit card instead. That's what Hyatt really wants. They don't really want us transferring our Chase or our Bilt points into their program because then you're not really truly Hyatt loyal. Is everybody who gets the Hyatt credit card gonna be staying at Hyatt 60-plus nights a year? Yeah, probably not, but they're gonna get more people by doing this than they d- have for the last decade or so. Yeah. A- and I think, like, there's no question. Co-brand, we've seen, it has evolved. It used to... I mean, they've always been in some ways bench cards, and now they're becoming, you know, cards that you kinda need to spend on. Uh, they've- they're tying status to it, right? You know, it's, it, uh, this is, this is only the beginning. I think we're in, like, the third inning in this space. Is it only a matter of time, and by matter of time, I mean, like, next April, before American introduces some kind of cardholder discount or exclusive award inventory space for cardholders? I would say that American lags in some ways because- Just some, though. Just some. Uh, uh, in case they were listening, I do like a lot of things that they've been doing, and a lot of the recent changes have actually been very positive. But the tech, um, so if you think about, you know, where American's tech is compared to, to United and d- and, and Delta, a lot of folks don't re- don't realize, they're always like, "Oh, is, when's American gonna copy? When's American gonna copy?" They're, they're building on these v- way more legacy systems- Mm ... than, than the others. And so United could react to something overnight, Delta could take a week, and American, it could take three months. Um, so I don't know if it's next April or if it's the following April, but it'll happen. Mm. Yeah. Really interesting. Okay, so you both have been covering the airlines for nearly a decade now. What's the biggest change you've seen in how the airlines treat their loyalty programs? Yep. I, I think, for lack of a better word, a lot of them treated their loyalty programs like they were running on autopilot for a long time, to a fault. And, you know, the, the upside of that is a lot of us got a lot out of that because they just didn't make the kinda structural changes as travel demand truly changed and as spending truly changed that they probably needed to make. And, uh, I think a lot of the pain that we're feeling with these kinds of changes in transfer ratios and partner award availability and all of that stuff is airlines realizing that they've been giving a lot away, especially the foreign airline programs. And so that, you know, when United sees that you can book that, uh, United Polaris business class seat from Newark to London for 60,000 Aeroplan points instead of 80,000, 90,000, 200,000 Mileage Plus miles, they're like, "We don't want that." So I think there's been this kind of awakening that they need to adjust how they treat the loyalty game because it is so much bigger than it's ever been, and it's truly global. I mean, you can earn Chase points or Amex points and send them to an airline like, uh, Virgin Atlantic or Avianca LifeMiles that you've never flown before and may never fly. I think that's become a problem for the airlines, and I think they're finally starting to catch up, sadly. Yeah. I, I think, uh, that, that totally makes sense. I like to think of it in, in, in a very easy framework. It's like the reward and recognition. I think as it relates to reward, those are things like the points. Absolutely concur with everything you're saying. I think the recognition is a piece, though, that often gets lost in the conversation, and that to me is like, what does elite programs look like? How do airlines evolve what it looks like to be, like, a loyal flyer? And so, you know, we talked about credit cards, but, you know, moreover, they, these airlines and hotels are really getting a much, getting much better at incremental loyalty. And so it's like adding those, like, milestone-based rewards. You know, you can over-qualify for status and now actually take advantage of a bunch more benefits than you may not have been able to, you know, in the past. And so what we're starting to see is, you know, airlines trying to customize loyalty programs almost into what fits with your travel journey and what fits with your travel journey based on You know, what you're doing with them that year. And, and I like that because then that means that someone who's, you know, maybe in between, let's say, the mid-tier and the, and the mid or up- middle, upper tier, you know, gold and platinum, for instance, uh, you actually get something out of that, which, which, which is cool. Well, Delta figured out that all they need to give Gunner is a bag of Dot's Pretzels, and he's happy. So it's, it's all good. Bag of Dot's Pretzels and I'm back in. It is... I would love to see studies done on what it does to the brain when they put a progress bar on the app or they put that little wheel for the status on the app. Like, for some reason I'm just like, "Oh, maybe I should be spending money on a Reserve Delta card." Like, it, it is kinda shocking at how they've gamified this to the point where people are like, "Actually, you know what? I think I do need to hit that next milestone, and I'm gonna spend 5,000 more dollars on my SkyMiles card or my United card." It's, it's kinda crazy what it does to you. So the natural next question after any time you talk about earning status is typically, what about my upgrades? So then I think the question is, do airlines need to do more to incentivize people to chase status in an era where upgrades are increasingly fewer and far between? I, I, I think that's a fantastic question, and I think that the airlines are, are, are just now starting to think about it. Like, you know, United launching Dynamic Plus points later this, or early next year, where, you know, they're now gonna pair supply and demand, basically pricing, algorithmic pricing, which is code name for more expensive, you know, upgrades, obviously. Great. But, uh, but yes, if you're flying on Tuesday night from Newark to London, yeah, yeah, it could cost less if, especially if you're doing like, you know, maybe the 4:00 flight that gets in at, before, you know, anyone wakes up at, in anywhere in the entire world. But alas, such is life. Um, yes, y- you know, the idea of complimentary upgrades I think is, it, it's always been like a game. Uh, you know, anyone who's a maximizer, optimizer in this space or certainly has been following s- you know, a lot of my work, I've totally taken advantages of, of, of those perks where I can, but it is, it's, tho- that, those days are over because people pay for these tickets. Right. Uh, you know, I, I can't tell you, I'm, the number of times I'm one, two, three on the wait list with four open seats, and then either people are same day changing, they're buying the last minute upgrade offers. And I'm guilty of it too now because, yes, I am a 1K or executive platinum or whatnot, but I also buy the upgrade offers because I know that's my only way in. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And they're much cheaper. Yeah, exactly. They, they've announced that. I mean, they've, they've been bragging about how they've lowered the cost of the forward cabin to try and get people to buy those upgrades so they don't have to give them to elites anymore. But I think you're right. It, they're gonna have to balance this at some point 'cause they're saying, "Hey, come spend 50 grand on your co-brand credit card so you can earn status this year, uh, but also you're not guaranteed anything. Maybe seat 7A." Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Um, we have a lot more to get to with you. I wanna talk more about being a travel insider, and we've got some rapid fire questions for you too, but first we're gonna take a quick break. All right, it's time for the Extra Mile, where we dig a little deeper on an important travel topic, and it's inspired, as always, by our awesome Extra Mile newsletter. It hits your inboxes every weekday morning, giving you the latest travel news, some fun deep dives, and more. Sign up today at thriftytraveler.com/extramile. This week on the Extra Mile, we're going in-depth with Zach Griff to get his view on the industry at large, how it's changing, how he's seen the industry change throughout his career, and then we're gonna hit him with some rapid-fire questions at the end. So Zach, your latest venture is From The Tray Table, a relatively new independent travel newsletter, um, but it's one of our favorites. It's a must-read, whether you're a points and miles nut, an aviation nerd, or an everyday travel and loyalty lover. How did you get started in travel in the first place and get to, uh, From The Tray Table? Where'd your career take you? Yeah, great question. I've, first thing, obviously, I also write... So it's funny you're talking about Extra Mile and, yeah, uh, for me, I think I'd say, like... I'll, I'll back into it, but, you know, newsletters are, like, the best thing ever. I like, I just love the fact that, especially if people kind of, your readers and followers like reading what you have to say, they'll open it every time. They're like... And, and I love really feeling like I'm connecting with my audience in a way that, you know, I never got to beforehand. So, so I've been in the travel space now for about a decade. I never thought I'd be doing this. I always loved credit cards, always loved the points, the optimization, the loyalty, airlines, hotels, the whole thing. But I went to college. My parents are doctors. The expectation was very much that I'd become a doctor. I actually took the MCAT. I did all the pre-med courses. I went to go work for two years in a consulting firm, think, a healthcare consulting firm, thinking I'd go and be, potentially go back to school, get maybe a business degree with a m- with, with a doc- with getting, become a doctor. And it was during that time that The Points Guy was just kind of pretty small, growing, and s- one of my friends found an ad or, like, a Snapchat story at the time saying, "Hey, we're, like, looking to gr- you know, grow the team. Tell, find us your best traveler or your best travel friend." And they sent it to me, and I was like, "Okay, well, I'm gonna apply, and worse comes to worse, you know, go back to doing what I'm doing." And just because it's like, why not? I was young at the time. I was, like, 25. Um- I did, and really the rest is history. So, so I spent about seven years, a little bit over seven years at, at The Points Guy doing a whole bunch of things. I'm sure a lot of people recognize me from there. But really one of the big focus for me while I was there was building out my own brand and my own, you know, voice as both a travel expert and someone who you see on Instagram, on TikTok, on Twitter. Um, and so for me, that's been, uh, that, that... It was really an unlock there where, you know, media's b- to me, has, has changed a lot. A lot of folks are consuming from their feed from people who they trust as opposed to, you know, big brands necessarily. And so I was like, "You know, this is the perfect time to go independent and launch, you know, my venture." Yeah. Well, first of all, as the son of two medical professionals, welcome to the team of shame. Yeah. Yeah. Many of us out there- Yeah ... who've let down their parents- Yeah ... by not joining the field. And, and guess what? I'll send my parents this podcast episode, and they'll still be ashamed. Well, you know what? Maybe one day. Yeah, one day. Maybe one day we'll impress them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, h- was there any part... I, I hear what you're saying about, you know, the value of being an independent voice and a face that people can connect with versus a corporate logo. Was there any piece of this, and we have felt this very acutely here, of watching traffic from Google d- go down a cliff and just kinda seeing where this industry was heading, where your primary piece of reaching people is writing that fewer people are seeing because Google is tanking it with algorithm changes and AI overviews? Yeah, no, absolutely. I think that, I think traffic, uh, SEO is, is largely dead. Uh, it's, it's not a surprise. I all bl- every, even traffic for the blog that I maintain is just backlinks for the newsletter so that, you know, if you wanna look at more pictures from the Alaska event, I don't have to email you with, you know, 60 pictures. So, I mean, it, it, it's, it's down. I think, like, you know, SEO, it's obviously changing. Um, and I think that there are two things, right? There's obviously the rise of AI and the changes that are happening kind of business side. But I think really it boils down to what I was saying before, which is that people are just consuming in different ways than... You know, they'll get their AI answers, and if they wanna learn more, they'll watch the short video. Maybe they'll do a YouTube. Maybe they'll ask their friends, and their friends will say, "Oh, I really trust that guy Zach Griffith," or, "I really trust that food guy," you know, whomever. And I think that's just- The, the, the way that people consume, I think we're, we're just conditioned to that nowadays Yeah, it's almost like there's the decline of the blog- Yeah and it completely coincides with the rise of the influencer, right? For sure. And, and that said, though, I think that one of the things that I really strive to differentiate myself around is that anyone can go pick up an iPhone and a ca- and a microphone and call themselves an influencer or a micro-influencer, or whatever you wanna call it this days. But, you know, for me, and I think for a lot of folks, it's, you know, you really w- in, in this space, you need to trust the experts. There are so much content out there, whether it's on Instagram, whether it's on, you know, newsletters or whatever, that is just not accurate, it's not vetted, it's, it's just wrong and, or it's just, you know, gonna get you in trouble because it's gaming some s- some loophole or something, that then your frequent flyer account's shut down because of it. Um, and I think that for, uh, to me, that is certainly one of the things that I lean into, is the credibility in, around the independence and, like, all that time that I've, that I've, that I've put already, and all those reps, and all the other devaluations that we've seen over the past 10 years. So it's a crazy time. Let's not turn this into a crying session, huh? About all those devaluations. So as, as you look back on kind of how you got to where you are today, one of my favorite questions to ask anybody we talk to, whether they're on our team or, or any other person that we talk with on this show is, what was your aha moment? What was the moment in your travels when you decided, "Wow, I can't believe how much value there is here," and that sent you further down the rabbit hole? Yeah, I mean, I'd say I, I've had multiple, obviously, over the years. I mean, the most recent one was really around going independent, was, uh, it was, you know, I had grown my social media accounts across platforms. You know, half a million people were fo- following me now, and I hope that that includes now all the listeners. Um, but- Every single one of 'em ... every single one of you, and the newsletter. Um, but, so, so I, I, I had this moment, and I was on a plane. Someone... I, I was, you know, boarding, and I saw two people watching the content that I had just placed, uh, or just posted. I was coming back from, I think it might have been actually an Apple event. It was in San Francisco or something. We can get to that in a second. But I, that was like, wow, it's reaching a lot of people that are consuming. I know that it's algorithmic, but it was, it was that combined with what we were talking about earlier, where, you know, traffic just being down, and the rise of folks consuming. You know, when, when friends start telling me like, "Yeah, I subscribe to this and that Substack or that newsletter," I'm like, "Okay, well, th- that, that's what I'm doing." Very cool. Um, okay, so travelers who follow you on social media and, and read your newsletter have probably noticed you fly a lot of different airlines, but I think it's safe to say you mostly fly United. So I'll ask you this as a Delta prisoner here at MSP. Is United really overtaking Delta, or is it all just vibes? Yeah. It's a fantastic question, and I think that the jury's still out. There's no question. My take is United has won the tech game. So, uh, the, the, uh, the tech, every aspect of it is just better on United. And I think that that comes at a time where, you know, just worldview and perceptions around companies also are now boiling down to how they interact with them, which is the tech, the AI, the, the way that they're integrating with their different agen- Just the whole thing, when you fly United, it just feels like a modern experience and, like, very much coded for, like, the next, you know, many years. I think that- Whether that's Starlink and, like, Delta's, you know, it, I, I know that there's a lot of back and forth, but, like, come on, Delta. Like, it's time to actually offer Wi-Fi that works c- consistently every single time. And so it's things like that that I think are, like, more of, like, the play around, like, is it vibes or, you know, where is, like... D- United has the momentum. There's no question. At the end of the day, though, Delta still wins on premium. I mean, you, you get on a Delta plane, you feel like people know you. You feel like the, the crew knows you, the people at, you know, the, the gate agents, the lounge agents. You know, the, the, it's not the s- You know, United has, has, I think, the hardest thing is now selling their frontline employees on, "Hey, we're this more premium airline. We've really changed. Can you take what you remember from the past 15, 20, 30 years, throw that out the window or, you know, adapt it to, to who we are today?" And so United still has a ways to go, um, but the, the, the gap between Delta and United is narrowing, like, really by the day. Yeah, and I'm so glad it has, right? I mean, it- Uh, it makes Delta better. Yeah, it's gonna make Delta better. It's gonna make everybody better. It's hopefully going to make this whole process, yeah, just more competitive, uh, so Delta doesn't get to lord over everybody and, and think that they're the best. Well, don't ask me how much I paid for my one-way flight here today. We are, we are very much in that battle with you, man. Yeah. Is there, is there an element to this, and maybe, not maybe, I am definitely way too cynical. I think you both know that. Everybody outside of this studio knows that. But to me, there is always going to be an element of it's very easy to say that, "Oh, I'm gonna go fly United," or, "I'm gonna go fly Delta instead of United now." When for maybe not the vast majority, but for a significant portion, and especially the travelers that airlines tend to care most about in these major markets, switching airlines is not really a realistic thing, choice you can make when you're choosing to set yourself up with a connection every single time you fly versus flying, you know, nonstop with the airline that dominates your hub because increasingly these hubs are not just hubs, but fortress hubs of where, you know, 70-plus percent of traffic is dominated by one of these airlines. Am I wrong? No, I think that makes a lot of sense, and I think that's why you see United investing in the markets that they believe are going to be the next big, you know, premium, you know, that word again, markets. Um- The P word. We're back ... but, like, you know, the, it's, it's the coastal hubs. It's the places where they're seeing a lot of credit card co-brand traffic, credit card spending increase, and, you know, incomes and just, you know, folks growing up now in, you know, getting, you know, better paying jobs. And so I think, you know, somewhat the airlines are kinda stuck with what they have. It's not like you can go and pick up and, and, and get a new hub tomorrow. You know, all, all the big cities are pretty much accounted for, and then if you wanna go in and, like, compete, like look at Los Angeles, like you end up competing yourself down to, like, needing to pull out of a lot of the, you know, investment that you make because it's just, how do you sustain You being the preferred airline when the other two or three are, are competing just as fiercely. Um, so for me, it's really the question is y- yes, it makes sense. Where you're hub captive, that's the airline you should fly. Um, but if, if it's someone on the margin, like take a look at Austin, right? Where, you know, Delta's obviously made a big play, American had their kind of failed play there. Um, but, you know, Delta's coming in and trying to really assert itself to the, to the point where, you know, yes, United has, has Houston and American has, has Dallas, but that, they're, they're gonna win that market and, or at least be like a very formidable competitor against Southwest because they believe that it's growing really rapidly, and folks are going to spend money on them and get the cards and, you know, earn the miles and do the whole thing. Yeah. Austin's a really interesting battleground. Excited to see what happens there, especially if, uh, as Delta kind of loses ground a little bit in Seattle, if they just decide, "All right, we're, we're done. We don't wanna have this battle in Seattle. Let's just go down to Texas." I mean, I think if the history of the airline industry has shown us anything, airlines are never gonna cut bait on something where they really stake something out. Yeah. The, the day when Delta, you know, really cuts bait on Seattle is never happening. I don't think that's, I, I, I think, I mean, they're here to fight. Uh, they, they, they're not ready. And, you know, uh, we, we all talk, I think even going to, back to the Alaska event, folks there very much recognize that Delta is obviously a key competitor. They'll add any route that they add. But, you know, it's almost gives like the home, it's like the underdog in a way. Like th- those folks at Alaska are so proud of their airline, and they're like, "We are Seattle's airline." And, you know, people are gonna choose what they want based on, you know, big airline that can fly you basically anywhere versus small airline that has, you know, only so many routes, a lot from Seattle. Um, but I think that that's, it's good. It makes both airlines better. Yeah. Absolutely. Better deals, too. Oh, and yeah, I mean, that's the biggest thing, right? I mean, it's, it's tough to see what... I mean, maybe not tough is the right word, but there's a lot of movement in Chicago, and the thought of there not being two truly competitive airlines in a really key hub, one of the biggest in the country, I mean, if Chicago becomes another Atlanta, that's, that doesn't serve anybody well, least of all United flyers, which if there's one airline that's going to dominate, not saying that this would happen, but it would be United. Yeah. And United flyers are going to be the ones that truly pay the price for that. No question. I mean, look, you know, look at your backyard, right? Yeah. Don't remind us. People from Minneapolis, Salt Lake, and Charlotte, stand up. Yeah. We're all- And Dallas. Yeah, and Dallas. And Dallas- Yeah ... and Detroit. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, the list goes on. I guess you could s- loop in Miami there, too. Yeah. So you mentioned your trip out to San Francisco and the Bay Area for Apple's most recent event. This is like the Super Bowl for some people every year, and a couple of times a year increasingly as they do these big product launches. And I gotta be honest, I don't care. That's fair. Make, make the case for me for why I should care, specifically not just as a human being with a smartphone. I do have an iPhone and a MacBook sitting in front of me, but why should I care as a traveler about what Apple is doing every year? I mean, it's a very fair question. I get a lot of that feedback from folks when I do cover these things, and for me, it boils down to, you know, I talked about how United really leads on tech. Tech is really what is going to be the differentiator and, uh, and, you know, going to dictate what happens to many industries, in particular travel. I mean, you think about it from a passenger experience. You are interfacing with tech, whether it's Apple devices, the competitors, every single time you're flying. Now, Apple has done a lot of really freaking cool things, uh, in my experience and, and my opinion, seeing it there firsthand, to actually solve a lot of traveler pain points. Like now when you... One thing I learned at the, at the event, you know, you call someone, and it automatically shows up all... You know, you call an airline, 1-800, you know, 221-1212, all of your Delta reservations scanned from all your different, you know, trips are now there on your s- on your call screen so that you can kinda quickly shift, you know. It's like, "Oh, I'm calling about this confirmation," and, and you know, that number's there. So to me, I think, you know, that's, that's just one small example, but whether it's the IFE on your, uh, TV screen or b- m- largely in some of the airlines that don't have TV screens, or it, you know, optimizes the experience when you're on the road picking up your rental car, driving around. I mean, to me it is, it is hand-in-hand. It is synonomous with travel- synonymous with travel. We use tech devices in everyday, you know, life. I am using my iPhone more than I do anything else, and I want to see what's changing about that and what I can translate into a better travel experience. I mean, one really, really cool thing that I'm trying right now is this feature, iCare. I have, you know, multiple numbers. I have my international number. I have my domestic number. I have this and that. Now I'm, like, doing this digital transfer solution where, you know, you can have more ph- you know, multiple phones and I c- I, I really do travel, travel with a very heavy backpack filled with a lot of gadgets. Um, and I can transfer the numbers now digitally. I don't have to, like, swap eSIM cards and stuff, and that's really helpful for, like, international travel and, and roaming. So I'm always thinking about it from a traveler perspective. I just need to point out, and I double-checked this, you rattled off Delta's call center number 100% accurately from memory I, I know I did That's, that's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, yeah, I... You guys couldn't? I mean, I- No, sorry man Maybe I should put you on the spot. I could give you my date of birth. Well- And my own phone number. That's about where I stop. Okay. Um, so who's the real travel expert again? Well, that's why you're here. Yeah. So it, it's impossible to talk about tech now, especially in airlines, without talking about AI- Yeah and what's happening, and this time last year, that conversation was about, largely about what is Delta gonna do with AI? What- who's the next airline to start to use AI to set airfare? Seems like that has, fair or not, kind of blown over. Yeah. What, what troubles or, uh, on the flip side is most promising to you for how either travelers or, you know, travel companies writ large will use AI for the better or worse? Yeah, I mean, that's a, that's a great question, and it's actually something that I've been really keen on experimenting with because I think, to me, that this is the next stage of, you know, our interface with airlines and hotels is with our AI agents, and so I've been putting Muse, Instinct, there's this new company called TSOR out there that is doing these, like, message-based chat bots that, you know, you can kinda get... You say book your flight. It's really not there yet. I mean, one of the companies, you know, we've talked about this, that I advise, Autopilot, that's doing AI-based repricing, which is really cool, and I think that those experiences that are now unlocked by AI that, you know, we couldn't have had or that were really, like, cumbersome back in the day that are now like, "Hey, pick my favorite seat on this flight," and it goes to know that that's, like, your A320, that you like the bulkhead or maybe you like the exit row without the mis- you know, with the missing seat in front of it in the window, and you don't have to, like, think through those things. That, to me, is the unlock from, like, a passenger perspective. From an airline travel provider company perspective, I mean, the AI reprice or the AI, um, you know, revenue management, that doesn't bother me that much. I mean, how different is that than just hiring extra analysts to do the work your, you know, yourselves, right? Right. Like, yes, it's, like, making it better, and it'll customize your price, but, like, maybe that's better for me because I did get a Delta upgrade offer for, like, 100 bucks a few weeks ago down to Atlanta, which I've never seen before. Um, so there's still a lot of work to be done. Uh, I- Muse cannot do what people say it can, uh, and Instinct and Claude and all these things. I still think AI's really good for itinerary planning, and that's pretty much it right now. Um, but I'm sure if you listen to this episode three months from now, you're probably like, "Are you insane?" So I hear you, but at the same time, as I map this out, I get to, like, an existential question- And I wonder where you draw the line here and where you draw the line too, Gunnar, which is people come to us, they listen to this podcast- Yeah they subscribe to your newsletter because you are a trusted voice to help them travel better or help them travel cheaper, and ideally both. And what happens in that future state where Muse or Claude or Grok Bot or whatever becomes the go-to resource for all of these questions, where you don't need to read through a newsletter anymore? These bots- For sure ... can just solve your problem. I think, you know, it's obviously an existential question that I think a lot of us think about. Well, uh, certainly me every single day. I'm, I'm convinced though that AI will never replace the lived experience. Like, you will never... Whether it's the events we're talking about, whether it's, you know, feeling the new phones or experiencing, you know, that beautiful sight in Hong Kong or whatnot, AI will never replace that. So, so that's one. And two, just like my move to independence was around the hypothesis that folks really wanna interact with personalities and people, uh, and folks who they trust and feel that they can trust, I think with AI it's gonna be the exact same thing. Like, AI will handle making your reservations. It will handle, you know, selecting your seat assignment. But who's informing, like, what is the best seat assignment? Like, that's, that's us, and, like, who, how, who, who's informing, like, whether that's, you know, the best deal or something? We found this, like, really cool deal alert. Like, people still want- There's no question. I mean, uh, maybe unless you're a robot, but, but certainly not, certainly not me. Yeah. I mean, uh, when I think about what I'm willing to go spend my points and miles on, a recommendation from Kyle, like, "Gunnar, you're gonna love A&A, the room," a recommendation from you, "You're gonna love the new Polaris suite," I mean, that's what really moves the needle- Yeah for me. And, you know, if, if a, a chatbot or someone else tells me, you know, "Here's your next great vacation," I'm be like, "Okay, says who?" And it's always gonna be a says-who answer for people like me. Maybe I'm old, old-fashioned in that way, but I think that's still the way. Um, ready for some rapid-fire questions? Let's go. All right. Let's keep these short. What's something small or cheap you pack on every trip that improves your travels? International power adapter on every domestic flight because the, uh, ports are wobbly, so if you use a European or UK, you never have to worry about that. I got that tip from your newsletter. I do it all the time now because those, those ports are always wobbly. Always wobbly. Yeah. Um, what's something you do on every trip that improves your travels? I bring a fan. Hmm. Even in the winter. Uh, I should have one right now. But I don't. Yeah. Gunnar, Gunnar will spare us from showing his pits to the camera of- Yeah how warm it is in our studio today. I like, like to keep the studio at 92- Yeah ... degrees. Great. Yeah. Turn up the heat on our guests. Thanks for that, man. Uh, a destination that's surprised you in a good way? I love Tel Aviv. Uh, I was... Uh, the first time I went, I didn't know what to expect. I've been go- I've been, been back a few times. Every single time, it gets better. The food is fantastic, the beaches are amazing, and I've had great experiences there. Very cool. All right, same question, but, uh, a destination that surprised you in a bad way. I went to Santorini earlier this year. It was my second time there. I hadn't been there in 10 years. And, uh, we didn't leave the... We left the hotel once and, uh, that was one too many times. Wow. Okay. That bad. Uh, just way overcrowded. Uh, you know, cruise ships depositing, you know, 10,000 people every single day. Like, how... And on a small island that's not built for that infrastructure. Like, that sucks as, you know, someone who flew in there and, you know, wanted to actually, like, experience it. Oh, brutal. Hope the hotel was good. Yeah, hotel was great. Okay. Hotel was great, and like that, and we knew that going. I kind of expected that from everything that I'd read from, you know, all... But that's the thing, like, AI will never answer that for you. Right. Yeah. Uh, but you know, you speak to friends, like, "Here's where you should go, what time of day you should go to this," and, you know, you get actual, like, lived experience. And so we, we did those things, and that was great, but I mean, just way overcrowded. Like, if you're booking Greece for next summer, like, go to some of the smaller islands. Cool. I like that. Uh, most underrated aspect of a good business or first class seat? Cathay Pacific has, uh, in their Aria Suite a, a bathroom indicator, uh, basically a seat map. Instead of a seat map, a bathroom map, and it shows red or green based on which lavatories are occupied or unoccupied. And now I wear contacts. I, when I go to sleep, I obviously take them out, and I can never see the damn green verse... My, my eyes, my eyesight's so bad. So then I have to go pick up my glasses, and on the, on this, on the screen, which is amazing, 4K with, like, all the latest gadgets and gizmos, like, you can see it. Every airline uses it. I don't know why Cathay's still, like, the only one that has it. Yeah. I liked that feature of the Cathay seat too. It's really nice. I don't mind it at all. Uh, tips for out-of-towners to survive the New York City area airports. A lot of Midwesterners like me get a lot of anxiety going in and out of New York. Yeah. What's your best tips for surviving there? Man, I got anxiety when I saw the fares coming here. Uh, a- a- and, and the mileage redemptions too, uh, just for the record. But, um, you know, you really have to be strategic. So, uh, if you're landing in the afternoon and you're trying to go to Manhattan, you have to fly into LaGuardia. Um, you know, factor that in also when you're making your reservation. You'll often find that Newark and JFK are cheaper than LaGuardia, but if you're taking a rideshare, you'll end up pay- you know, you'll, you'll lose it on the back end. I think most folks don't, don't realize that. Early morning, if you're okay with early morning flights, there's never traffic really to any airport, and so kinda just choose, pick your poison. Um, and there are obviously public transit options. They kinda suck depending on where you're going. Um, if it works, great. If not, I, uh, just kinda do... I use, actually, I use Empower. I don't know if you guys have heard of it or if it's- We don't have it around here, but I've- You don't have it around here- ... I've seen it but you've seen me post about it a lot because it is ridiculously cheaper than, uh, Uber and, and Lyft. It's a new, um, new, like, rideshare app that changes the model where the drivers are, you know, kinda pay a platform fee and then keep all their earnings. And I'm, I've saved, you know, probably s- five to s- 10 grand this year on rideshare. Wow. I mean, I take a lot of rideshare, um, and yeah, around New York I take the subway, but to the airports, every time to the airport I'm saving, like, 40 to $70. Wow. All right. Empower. All right, I get the last one. On a scale of one to 10, how good of a masseuse is Sir Richard Branson? All right, it's a great question. If you do you like that picture, right? Of course. You like it too. If I, I hope- How could we not? I hope that anyone who, who, who's, who's curious about this, uh, goes and checks out either the Instagram or, or newsletter I wrote about, he, Sir Richard Branson did give me a head massage. Uh, and it, we, yeah, it, it, I know that sounds so weird and don't cancel me or him over it. You know what? We're saying new English sentences on the pod every week. Yeah. This is one of the best. Uh, it, it was actually, he, he was pretty s- pretty strong pressure. He did potentially ruin one of his fur rugs in his penthouse suite- ... of the Virgin Hotel to do it, but it's his, not mine, so. He, love to know that another man is committed to the bit. We'll let you go find the context for that story at, uh- It's almost better with that frame ... at From the Treys Table, yeah. Um, all right, on the show, we love a good travel mistake, some sort of mishap on your travels. Travel, you know, it's not always perfect, and for someone like me, it's rarely perfect. Uh, I make a lot of mistakes out there. Have any good travel mistakes or mishaps? I was, 'cause we talked a lot about events, uh, probably one of my favorite airline events this year was this summer, Qantas was doing a, a, a sho- a showcase around Project Sunrise, world's longest flight, Sydney to New York and London nonstop, around 22 hours. And it was a two-day event. I was coming from another event, and I had one option to get there. It was British Airways connecting over London with a, you know, hour and 20 minute connection, which, you know, normally I, I'm a, I'm a very, very, uh, fast travel, you know, when I, I know, I know the hacks to all the airports that I travel to, so I thought it'd be fine. We ended up getting there late. Um, British Airways actually sent a car to pick me for, pick me up. I don't know if you guys saw this, but they literally sent a car to drive me to the new plane, which was very generous of whomever arranged that. Um, but they brought me to the plane. I had nine minutes to make the flight, and the plane, and the gate agent goes, "Yeah, I sent it." I'm like, like, you know, I close the door and the, and the plane's gone. And it's like, you sent me the car, you did all this, and then, and then, it, which, which again, very, very generous, but like, come on, like, where's, what, what, like so incompetent. And now, like, the craziest part is so then I went to go file for UK261, like the, you know, the, the, um, the compensation that you get for, you know, a missed connection because of, you know, long delays and whatnot, and then they denied my claim. Uh, they, they claimed that it was, they claimed that it was, um- ATC related, air traffic control related on departure. We were, it was a connecting, it was going to Charlotte, London, London to Toulouse, which is where Airbus's headquarters are. Um, and, uh, and they claim that in Chicago we were late because of air traffic control. And the craziest part is that when we, I was on the plane they announced that it was a passenger issue, which is why we were late to de- to depart. Um, so I'm still kind of, uh, out money I'm owed and missed half of my event because of them, so. Oh, that's a tough one. Yeah. I love that they, they sent the car for you, but slammed the door is- Yeah is wild. I, I, I, there, I, there was no worse feeling. I, I l- and I went, I moved quickly. There were nine minutes, uh, from... I get it, whatever, but you know, I, I won't let that, they won't let them live that one down. That's a good travel mistake. I'm glad we get to include that one in, uh, the lexicon. It's kind of more of a BA mis- travel mistake- Yeah, exactly than your own, but we'll take it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, but, but you know what? Like, uh, they, they, they need to... I, I've publicized it, now I'll get, let, let, let this platform here too. There you go. Uh, let's help a listener. We have Patrick who wrote in. Patrick said, "I know Gunner's a ski freak like me. Would love to hear his personal strategy. Skiing is so expensive if you don't happen to live within driving distance of a good mountain and you also don't happen to be super rich. It's almost impossible to go on multiple ski trips a year without getting creative with points and miles. In my experience, figuring out how to get free lodging at the mountain you actually want to ski at is the tough part. It's easy to figure out the flights. Thoughts? Patrick." So Zack, I know you're a big skier too. I read last year you skied Tignes Val d'Isère and Niseko. Uh, first, what's your plan for this winter? And second, what are some things you do with points and miles to chip away at skiing costs? Yeah, that's... a- and I think that's probably, uh, one of the best questions for, from a reader I've heard in a long time because I think it, it, it's not obvious how, how you, how you s- how you skin that cat. Um, I love to ski. Uh, last year I did have a, I took, um, I went to business school, and what I learned is that at business school they travel more than they learn. Uh, and so- So you have taken that lesson to play obviously. Yeah, e- exactly. Well I cl- I'm the embodiment of it. Yeah, right. That's why, that's why I graduated, you know, I don't know, summa cum laude, whatever you wanna cl- I, I definitely didn't. But, um, but, but, but jokes aside, uh, it got, I, I had this opportunity to travel with a lot of my friends there who also were big skiers and, you know, were all into the points and miles game. So, so this year I'll probably stay, you know, last year was obviously a very bad year for snow here domestically. Um, even internationally over in Europe, like they were struggling for a while. So I'm gonna take it by, play it by ear. I'm not gonna book anything. You, a lot of ski, I mean, the first thing, a lot of it becomes non-refundable really early. Um, and so I never, ever, ever go on like one of those things that are like 60-day non-refundable windows, like whether it's ski or some other type of trip, because you never know what's gonna happen. Like if you, I, we, if I, with last season- I only did two trips domestically, uh, towards the end of the season that were domestic to Salt Lake City, and my flight was empty both ways. It was like Thursday night departure, Sunday night come back, and those trips are usually, you know, $900 as, you know, as our reader sharing, and it's like, it was, it was basically free. I got all, everything on points because, you know, I waited till the last minute. But, but to the loyalty strategy, I actually push back and say that there are a great number, not a great, but a good number of, uh, hotels that do accept points for s- for, you know, the ski resorts that do accept points. Uh, when I went to Nasco, I stayed at the Park Hyatt pre-devaluation, and that, that will go down as one of the nicest hotels I've ever stayed at. Um, even if you don't like to ski, the hotel itself or the resort is awesome. And again, like bookable with Hyatt points. In the US, you obviously, Hyatt has properties in Beaver Creek. They, you know, and I've stayed at the Waldorf Astoria Park City a few times, like using points and stuff. Um, and so it's more around you need to be flexible. You will not get Christmas, you will not get New Year's, you will not get Thanksgiving, President's Week. Um, but if you're okay with maybe doing like a week-long ski trip, uh, you can definitely find availability. It's out there. You'll pay for it, but again, that's a ski trip and, like, you're not paying cash. Uh, you could say, "Okay, well, uh, you know, I'll pay on like the edit or whatever and, and maybe get, uh, earn bonus points." But I would say that For me, skiing is a flights and hotels are free, and then because skiing itself is so expensive as a sport, which I'm sure, you know, y- you, you agree with, uh, you just gotta, you know, u- use one of those cards that are, have a lot of non-bonus spend categories, uh, you know, bonuses on those, and just kinda bite the bullet. Yeah, the key is just chipping away, right? Yeah. I, I think it's, you know, uh, same thing. Try and get flights and hotels on points and miles wherever you can. Um, like you, I'm also going into this year as a free agent. Yep. I just, you know, uh, it's an El Niño year. You never know where it's gonna snow, and if it does snow really big, like sometimes it does in El Niño, I wanna be able to jump on something when I can. A- and that's the beauty of points and miles. Like, and maybe the hotels will, or you'll have to Airbnb potentially. But you will get a flight, or I will get a flight. Uh, and I'm sure, you know, a lot of folk like you, the, those last-minute deals are still out there. I think folks forget about that. I am all the time canceling and rebooking until literally, like, hours before departure. All right, Zach and I are gonna keep recording this off mic- Yeah ... uh, for another hour and a half when we're done here. I guess I'll do a, a 120-minute bonus pod just on skiing. Yeah. I'm gonna go have lunch. Yeah. But for now, uh, Patrick, thank you for the question. If you want us to answer your questions on the podcast or you have any feedback for us, hit us up at podcast@thriftytraveler.com. We might feature your question on next week's show. To close the show, as always, we go On the Spot, and Zach said he brought us a question. Zach, what do you have for us On the Spot? I want to know, both of you are based here in Minneapolis. You're hub captive. Would you ever move to a different city based on the airline that is, uh, dominant in that market, or airlines dominant in that market? If I had a choice of cities to move to, I would definitely take the airport and the airlines who are dominant there into consideration. That's for sure. Um, but I don't know if I would move just for an airline. I mean, yeah, if I, if I were to move someplace, I'd probably move someplace that's like s- have a smaller regional airport somewhere in the mountains, and so in that case, I'm, uh, making things worse for myself probably. But I don't know what you think. Uh, worse or better. I mean, sometimes- I guess so, yeah ... so sometimes those, like, connecting cities, it's like, eh, wouldn't it be nice if instead of today flying nonstop, you know, to Minneapolis, I was flying to one of the regional airports nearby that, you know, had 1,000 different connecting options and were, you know, $600 cheaper? Yeah, I, I'm kind of in the same boat. I guess I look at it this way. I, I love my life. Yeah. Um, I love being within driving distance of family There's not an airport in the world that's worth more to me than that, but man, I sure would love to, like, move JFK into Minneapolis-Saint Paul and benefit from all of the competition there- Yeah or- Even just the lounges. Yeah, or if you could just take, you know, the airline operations at O'Hare and move them from that dumpster fire of an airport- ... over to Minneapolis, I would do that. But there's a lot keeping me here, and I'm, I'm at peace, I guess, with being, uh, uh, the hub captive that we all are here. Yeah. I, and I've never been hub captive in my entire life. I grew up in South Florida, and I mean, uh, we were very close to, like, Fort Lauderdale, which I guess is, you know, very competitive with, like, a lot of the leisure airlines and low-cost airlines. But you know, being in New York now for so long, I don't know what life is like as a hub captive flyer, and I don't... Again, uh, uh, to your point, like, I would potentially move... You know, I'm gonna, if I'm gonna move somewhere, um, it's not going to be just about the airport, but it is definitely gonna be in the consideration set because that's a lot of money. I travel a lot. Like, you know, it adds up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the house I bought is 10 minutes from the airport, and that was more or less on purpose, so. Yep. Yeah. Mine is six, so- Yeah. ... that was also very much on purpose. And I live in New York City, so mine is who knows? Yeah. Varies by the minute. Anywhere between 25 minutes and an hour and a half. Um, Zach, this was awesome, man. Thank you so much. Thank you for joining the show. Where can people find you and sign up for, uh, From The Tray Table? Thank you again for having me. It's been a blast. Uh, my newsletter, type in From The Tray Table newsletter to Google. Yes, uh, it still works. Uh, you will find You will add your email there. Uh, if you're on any of my social media platforms, uh, Zach Griff or Zach Griff with an underscore, but you just type in Z-A-C-H G-R-I-F-F, I'll pop up. And questions, comments, you know, to some of my coverage, like, I'm, I'm an open... I reply to almost every email I get or DM. There are some that I don't, be, unfortunately- Probably for the best. Yeah, for the, for the best. Yeah. Uh, I assume you guys are the same. Uh, but questions or comments, I'm, I'm, I'm around. This was awesome. All right, thank you all so much for listening to the Thrifty Traveler podcast. Rate us five stars on your podcast platform of choice, and like and subscribe to the show on YouTube. Send this episode to someone you know who needs a vacation. If you have feedback for us, send me a note at podcast@thriftytraveler.com. We would love to hear from you. Kyle, tell us about the team. This episode was produced by your favorite host, who is next in line for a massage from Sir Richard Branson- ... Gunnar Olsen. I don't know if you're gonna get it, buddy. I'm sorry. It was produced and edited by Sylvia Thomas and edited by Kyle Thomas. Our theme music is by Benjamin Tissot. Thanks for coming, Zach. See you guys next time. See ya. Later.