Higher annual fees. More perks. New lounges. It never stops. The big banks are going bigger than ever on their “premium” travel credit cards. So, Gunnar (fresh off paternity leave) and Kyle bring Thrifty Traveler’s co-founder and credit card expert, Nick Serati, on the show to help break down all the recent moves from Chase, Amex, and Capital One. And they ask the $900-plus question: With annual fees approaching $1,000 a year, are we hitting a breaking point?
Higher annual fees. More perks. New lounges. It never stops.
The big banks are going bigger than ever on their “premium” travel credit cards. So, Gunnar (fresh off paternity leave!) and Kyle bring Thrifty Traveler’s co-founder and credit card expert, Nick Serati, on the show to help break down all the recent moves from Chase, Amex, and Capital One. And they ask the $900-plus question: With annual fees approaching $1,000 a year, are we hitting a breaking point?
0:00 - Introducing Nick … & our new studio!
1:13 - Catching Gunnar up on all the big travel news he (& you) missed
05:48 - Something Hot: Chase’s huge bonus on the new Sapphire Reserve
10:37 - Something cold: Chase’s messy eligibility rule changes
15:23 - A word from our sponsor (us … and our really cool CardPilot tool that’ll help you pick your next travel card!)
17:00 - The Extra Mile: Diving into the “premium” travel credit cards arm race
19:17 - What’s next for the Amex Platinum Card?
20:13 - Capital One throws down the gauntlet with the best lounge yet
21:49 - A fourth big premium card on the horizon? All eyes on Delta
23:20 - Why “premium” travel is all the rage right now
26:20 - Doing the math on premium cards & big annual fees
29:48 - Why banks are all turning their top cards into glorified coupon books
33:40 - The real value of these top-dollar travel cards
39:50 - Listener Question: The best 4-5 credit cards to get started
44:06 - On the Spot: What do Nick & Gunnar love about being dads?
Produced by Gunnar Olson & Jackson Newman
Edited by David Strutt
Show music: “All That” by Benjamin Tissot
Yo. Welcome to the show. It's Gunnar Olson and Kyle Potter as usual. But today, we've got a super special guest. He's the cofounder of Thrifty Traveler, the foremost expert on travel rewards and travel credit cards.
He's the king of cards. He's the prince of points. He's the magistrate of miles. It's Nick Serati. Keep going.
Keep going. There's more. That well is not dry yet, buddy. That was not off the top of the head. Nick, how's it going?
Welcome to the show. Hey. Thanks, guys. It's great to be on the show, and that was quite the introduction, Gunnar. So thank you for that.
So, are the rumors true that you refused to come on the show until we had a professional looking studio like the one behind us? Yes. Those rumors are true. I didn't wanna be shoulder to shoulder with you guys like some of the other guests on the show. We we are missing out on the awkwardness of this.
But if you're not watching along on YouTube, we are, for the first time, recording in our brand new studio in our new office, which an upgrade is an understatement, I think. It looks way, way better. It's way more comfortable for everybody. Poor Jared and John, our first two in studio guests, had to go elbow to elbow with Kyle and I, but not anymore. We're pros here, or at least we're gonna pretend like it.
So, let's get started with something. I wanna find something out today. For two weeks, I've been gone after the birth of my daughter, and I'm having trouble catching up on everything that's changed in the news. It's been kind of a crazy two weeks of news in, the travel world. I don't have time to get to all of it.
So I'm gonna need you guys to help me prioritize what some of these headlines kinda in order of importance on a scale of one to five. So five being the things you think are the most important for me and others to know. One being is I can forget about it, and we'll get to it later if I can. Okay? So I'm gonna list some news stories here.
How about the flight prices to Europe just continue plummeting? Like, 3 hundreds and 4 hundreds round trip out of five. Which which one's one and which one's five? One is most important? Five is most important.
Okay. The reverse Defcon. I'm going a I'm going a solid three on that because it's that trend has stuck around for a while. So I'm starting to wonder whether this trend is gonna be with us for good. Yeah.
I'll give that a three as well. I think that's a I think that's a good spot in the lineup. Okay. Another big story from last week. Max Miles points comes on the podcast, made us briefly cool.
Maybe cool. The coolest person we've had on the show. It's low bar. But, yeah, a five. That was a really fun episode.
But that's not to say that I'm not thrilled that you're back because please don't make me do this alone again, Gunnar. Thank you. Very, very nice. A revamped $800 Chase Sapphire Reserve card? That's a Nick question.
I'm gonna go five. I don't I can't think of a bigger story that has hit the travel rewards space in the last couple weeks, which was timed almost perfectly with, with your paternity leave. So Chase knew a lot to catch you up on. Chase knew Emery was on the way. We're like, alright.
Let's get it out there. Alright. How about all the unprecedented business class award space all over the world, stuff that we've never seen before, haven't seen in, like, five years, a word space that we thought maybe was dead forever coming back all at once. Six, seven, eight, nine, 10. I don't I mean, I think this is right now the biggest story in travel, and it has come together over, you know, the last couple of months, but the trend now is just absolutely blaringly undeniable.
Yeah. That's pretty insane. It's, hard sitting at home not to book all this stuff, like Max did. Like, he told us the story with his interview. Level yet?
No. I can't book things with one hand. That's unbelievable. Max is too cool for our podcast, too cool for this world. The new JFK Capital One Lounge opening, Kyle, you were there
Right? Yeah. I mean, I'd go with solid four. New lounges is we're gonna talk about later in the show are happening all the time now, but this one with a, quote, unquote, bodega and a cheesemonger is just kind of on another level, not just for Capital One, but for, you know, credit card backed airport lounges as a whole. Cheesemonger is, something I didn't know was a real thing.
I actually I've heard the word, but never even knew. It's it is the bestmonger. Fishmonger below that, and then there's, like, a 100 more, and then it's warmonger. But cheesemonger is the clear number one there, but the number four in the for the purposes of our rankings. We'll get to Kyle's, monger rankings at the end of the show.
It's time. I'm gonna need a full hour pod for that one. Okay. Nick, you're gonna have to do this one for me. Every single premium credit card getting a makeover all at once?
Yeah. What's what's happening? What's happening with premium travel cards? We're gonna talk about it today, but, I can't think of a of a crazier few weeks, in the in the credit card landscape, that's happened since I've been covering the space since 2035. So a lot happening.
Yeah. We're gonna talk all about it later. And then the last news story is just a huge one for me. Thrifty traveler gets a brand new office and a podcast studio. Out of five, what do you guys think?
I think you get to rank this one because you walked into this. Well, I think it's, a four just because the other news out there is kinda pushes it down a peg, but this place looks awesome. We're very excited to be in this new studio, and, I hope it looks a little better on your YouTube screens, as you guys watch the show this week. So today on the show, we're gonna talk to Nick all about the new and improved Chase Sapphire Reserve and kind of the broader premium credit card points and miles landscape. We're gonna chat with him about, being the cofounder of Thrifty Traveler.
And then, if we have time in the end, he's gonna share his famous casserole recipe that you simply must deploy at your next dinner party. All that and more, welcome back to the Thrifty Traveler podcast. Alright. Let's jump into something hot and something cold where we look at the good and the bad news out there for travelers from the last week, and we're gonna start as always with something hot. So we've been talking about it.
The Chase Sapphire Reserve, the kinda long neglected highest level of credit card from Chase that earns Chase ultimate rewards. Finally got this, long rumored face lift. Kyle and Max talked about the card a few weeks ago, but just to recap for everybody, a 100,000 ultimate reward sign up bonus offer and a $500 travel credit after spending $5,000 in the first three months. Like normal, the card comes with an annual $300 travel credit as well. It gives you Sapphire Lounge and Priority Pass lounge access, a global entry and pre check credit.
There are lots of changes to the card, which we're gonna dig into. You can now earn eight x points on all Chase portal purchases, four x on hotels and flights outside of that portal. You get $500 in hotel credits to use through Chase's The Edit portfolio, as well as some other on-site benefits. $300 of dining credits. Alright.
Take take a breath. Take a breath, Gunnar. We're gonna get through this. Alright? It's so much.
$300 with StubHub, a $120 with Peloton, elite status, and much more. All are price tag of $795 annually. So, guys, lots there. I want you each to pick a benefit or two that qualifies this offer as something hot. Is this a hot offer?
What what do you guys like about it? Yeah. I think, when you when you look at the offer, you know, we were kinda speculated in the office last week, before we before we knew what it was actually gonna be. And, you know, we were hundred, hundred and twenty five, 150. What's what's the level?
You know, I think the MX Platinum right now is offering a 175,000 points, so we thought it would be, you know, something at least competitive or in that same neighborhood. And I think all of us, you know, once we saw the offer with the $500 travel credit, we're like, oh, yeah. That makes total sense. But I don't think it was on any of our radars. So, I mean, the offer is solid.
And I think, you know, if you're if you're wondering if you can come out ahead on this in year one, I think the answer is absolutely yes as long as you can hit the spending requirement. But when I look at the benefits on the card and kind of what's changed, I think the number one thing that I think is a good thing is that the $300 travel credit didn't go anywhere. You know, we used to say that the Sapphire Reserve had an annual fee of $550. You can use that $300 travel credit, and you should be able to. It's probably one of the easiest credit card benefits to take advantage of.
It really made the annual fee more like $250. So the math is a little different now, obviously, with a $795 annual fee. You know, subtracting out that 300, subtracting out that 300, you're still looking at a $495 annual fee. And then it just kind of comes down to the math of whether or not you can use some of these new credits. And I think the answer to that question is gonna be different for everybody, but I'm pleased that they didn't get rid of that $300 travel credit.
Yeah. I mean, much as I wish, and I think a lot of people wish that rather than adding in this one time $500 travel credit that the Chase had gone to $1.50 or $1.75 or even $200,000 that they did as they did for the Chase Sapphire Reserve for business, it's still setting a record and a 100,000 Chase Ultimate Rewards points for the same amount of spending. You know, Chase didn't bump this up for this huge limited time offer. So, you know, do I wish that Chase had gone to 150,000 points instead of doing a 100,000 points and $500 in extra travel credit? Of course.
That said, I mean, you start to add up all of the ways to get this value if you can use it, and that is a big if. But if you are able to use that $500 travel credit by booking through the Chase travel portal, $300 a year in the annual travel credit, which as Nick said is the easiest credit card benefit period to use. And if you're not spending $300 in travel a year, you shouldn't be getting a premium travel credit card that costs almost $800 a year. $500 for, you know, Chase, the edit hotels, which is annoying that it's split into rather than an annual benefit, but fine. Whatever.
I mean, just those benefits alone adds up to a lot very quickly on top of that big bonus. So to me, you know, for people who are eligible for this card, it becomes a pretty easy thing to stomach in year one to pay this new annual fee of $795 a year. And then after that, all bets are off. I think it just depends on having this card in your belt for a little bit of time and figuring out just how easy or not easy it is to use all of these benefits and get that annual feedback. Yeah.
We're gonna talk a lot about the mechanics of, what this offer means and kind of the premium card landscape. But you talked about the eligibility of getting this card in the first place, and that kinda unfortunately brings us to something cold. So one of the parts of the card rollout we were most excited about was that Chase promised travelers that they could hold both this reserve card and the preferred card, the little brother of, these Sapphire cards. But it hasn't quite worked out like that. Right?
What what am I what am I missing here? It's it's is a mess on par with your newborn daughter's diapers. Trying to figure out not just what Chase is saying, but trying to untangle the conflicting statements that Chase has made publicly versus what's in their FAQs, versus what's in the terms and conditions, versus what they are saying as they're actually denying people who should be on paper eligible for this new product is really frustrating. That's that's what Nick and Jackson and Long on the credit card team, on our team here at Thrifty Traveler have spent way too many man hours doing. It did not need to be this complicated.
Yeah. And one of the things we say here often is, you know, we like to be the data point that we wanna see in the world. So, naturally, the day that the card launched, I went to apply for it. Just for science, though. Right?
Not not for your own selfish purposes. Yeah. Yes. So I had the Sapphire Reserve back in 2016. I upgraded a CSP, the Sapphire Preferred, to the to the Reserve.
Did not earn a bonus on that because it was upgraded, obviously. And I held that until about 2022, downgraded it back to the CSP, which I held until about two months ago when I downgraded to a Freedom card so I could apply again for the CSP to get that 100 k offer. So on paper, I had never earned a bonus on the Sapphire Reserve, and, you know, there was there's a lot of language that says you can hold both cards, so I wanted to take a crack at it. One of the nice things that Chase had communicated was they were moving to this new system where they would let you know before you actually submitted your application whether or not you were gonna be approved for it. So you'd have the chance to or approved or not earn a welcome offer bonus.
So then you'd have the chance to pull the application before they actually pulled your credit. So I applied bright and early on Monday this week. And before I even got to the pop up page, I was declined. So I was like, I didn't even have the chance to pull my application out. So I later called Chase's reconsideration line, and, the representative said, no.
Your application hasn't been declined. It's it's pending review, and it's gonna take a few days. I can't help you with it. So fast forward to this morning, I get the email that says I am declined, and the reason is because I have earned a bonus on a Sapphire card, which no doubt is because I recently earned the bonus on the 100 k, Chase Sapphire Preferred card. But I think it just kind of highlights how big of a confusing mess this whole rollout has been.
Well, in your story, while a little bit to the extreme is not uncommon in terms of the people that we have heard from, you know, at this point as we're recording this, just days into this offer being available, of not being able to figure out why they have been declined because Chase's messaging is just kind of all over the place in terms of who should be eligible for this and who shouldn't. And not being very definitive about, you know, Chase for as long as I can remember has had this forty eight month rule where, you know, you have to go at least forty eight months or more between earning a bonus on different sapphire products. And, you know, all indications were that this was going to get removed and that Chase was going to kinda take a broader look at deciding who might be eligible to open these cards and earn a bonus. And, you know, at this point, we're nearly a week in, and we still don't really know what is going on, which, you know, banks are always secretive about this stuff because they're trying to protect themselves against weirdos like us trying to figure out exactly how it works and game the system and earn a bigger bonus and earn it again if we can.
And I understand that, but at this point, I think it's really crying out for a lot more clarity because right now, as we're talking, I don't think anybody really has a good feel outside of Chase headquarters of exactly how this works, which is frustrating. No. And I think I think one of the biggest things that, Jackson Newman on our on our credit cards team pointed out earlier this week is if you read the terms and conditions on the eligibility for who's eligible for the Sapphire card, it is the messaging is, like, entirely opposite of what the pop up that some people are getting. Completely contradictory. Messier than my daughter's diapers.
We, we have a lot to unpack on this topic and just, like, about all these premium travel credit cards, which have been, stumbling over themselves to make bad changes this week, it seems like. So we're gonna dig into all that, but first, we're gonna take a quick break. Are you feeling overwhelmed by all the travel credit card options out there? That's why our team, especially the guy sitting between us, Nick, created CardPilot, a tool to help you pick the best travel rewards credit card for you. Use CardPilot and you're gonna get an expert recommendation based on your spending and travel goals within minutes.
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There are no gimmicks here. There's no hidden fees. Just our expert guidance from our credit card pros here at Thrifty Traveler. And, what this has done for me personally, and that's what really this is all about, is that this has made it so that my friends and family in my life can't come to me and say, hey, Gunnar, what card should I be signing up for? Because you're getting less than perfect advice when you come to me.
You need to be going to CardPilot first. Once you go through CardPilot and you get your recommendations, then you can come to me and I can, just give them a thumbs up. How about that? Does that sound like a good plan? Friends and family out there, stop texting me about what cards to get.
Go to CardPilot first. Before you apply for another card, make sure it's the right one. Head to thriftytraveler.com/cardpilot and let Card Pilot help with your rewards game. That's thriftytraveler.com/cardpilot, your first class ticket to smarter travel. Alright.
Back to the show.
Alright, Nick. We didn't just invite you on the show for your looks. You've been writing about analyzing travel rewards credit cards since the travel rewards boom really started, like, a decade ago, and you've pretty much seen it all in modern travel rewards. Have you ever seen as much change to the higher end of travel credit cards as you have in the last two weeks?
I would say no. And I think it's important to remember that, before Chase launched the Sapphire Reserve card in 2016, there wasn't really a premium travel card competition between the banks. It was the MX Platinum, and that was about it. So, you know, Chase comes onto the scene in 2016, lower annual fee, and then Capital One launches the VentureX in 2021 with a $395 annual fee, which is where it still is today. You know, I would say, to answer your question, no.
There there's been news from every single one of the banks that, that plays in the premium card space this week, and it's been a lot to keep to keep track of. Yeah. It's it's kinda funny that, you know, we just want like I said, in the open, I've been watching from afar and reading the news as you guys print it at thriftytraveler.com this week. And it kinda seems like a bit of a clumsy rollout, from all of this. I mean, whether it's the Sapphire Reserve application or eligibility rules or the MX platinum is just, like, you know, kinda haphazard throw together a press release, hear all of our changes too.
Like But but it's not happening? We're we're gonna do something, but not yet? Look over here. We don't know what we're doing yet, but look over here. Well, it's just it's so indicative of how competitive this has gone, which as Nick pointed out is really astounding because it wasn't even a decade ago that there was no competition period.
And here we are, and the three biggest banks that play in this market are basically racing each other to try to make bigger news to the point where they were, like, moving up their embargoes and launch dates for the news that they had in order to beat each other because they all know what the other one is working on. And when they finally get wind that something is happening, they're like, oh, you know, we're actually gonna announce this on Monday, not on Tuesday. It's so funny to me that this is where it's gotten where these banks are just constantly trying to one up each other and beat each other just in the name of being the premium travel card. Yeah. Alright.
So let's let's talk a little bit about these announcements. We obviously touched on the Chase Sapphire Reserve card and all the new, points that you should know about that one. So let's let's start with the changes made to the AmEx Platinum card. Can you walk me through what, AmEx Platinum cardholders or potential new cardholders can expect from that card? No.
We can't because we don't know. AmEx's announcement was that there's an announcement coming this fall. So we don't know if we I can guarantee you that it's gonna be a higher annual fee. I think, I think there's been some rumors that have leaked that the annual fee might go up to somewhere around $895. I wouldn't be surprised if it's if it's higher than that, but I think that price point makes sense just based on where it's currently at.
No question Which can I just point out? That was my bet. So we're just gonna log that. I have lost so many bets on this damn show, and I'm finally feeling good about one of them. That's good.
We're we're really happy for you. Thank you. Thank you. It's important. Okay.
Then let's talk about the Venturex. What, what's new with Venturex land and Capital One? I mean, I think the biggest thing is that they opened this brand new lounge at JFK, which on its own, in isolation, I don't think is nearly as big a news as what we've heard from Chase and American Express. But I think two things about this standout. One is just how much money they clearly put into this lounge in the biggest and most important market in The United States, New York.
That doesn't happen by accident. I mean, the amount of money that they're spending to bring in cheese from Murray's and bagels from Essa Bagel every single day in order to court travelers to get their travel credit card to get into these lounges is really big. And the other piece of it is that in the biggest and arguably hardest market to build an airport lounge at in New York City at JFK, they opened this lounge within the span of just over a year when every other lounge that they built as they started opening these lounges dating back to late twenty one, in Dallas, and then following that Denver and DC took at least two years, if not more, to open. So they clearly were, like, rushing to get this done. And that's not to say that it's not a spectacular lounge because it absolutely is.
But, again, I think it says something about just how cutthroat this competition is that they were like, alright. We gotta kick this into high gear and get JFK open ASAP. Yeah. I remember, peeking in the windows of that Denver lounge over the, whatever, three years it took to build that one, and same thing with the Vegas Lounge when it was still just a shell. I was up taking photos of and trying to figure out where exactly this lounge is gonna be and what it looks like.
So the three premium travel credit cards we're talking about, Chase Sapphire Reserve, the platinum card from American Express, and the Capital One VentureX card. Those are the three kind of big premium cards we're talking about. Is there room for a fourth premium travel credit card? Who or, I guess, what, would put that kind of a card into the market? I think it was sometime last year.
Delta's president's I believe it's his title, Glenn Houstine. He, made a comment on their on their earnings call about, you know, they're potentially exploring an ultra premium Delta card. So this would be something that would slot in above the Delta SkyMiles Reserve card, which right now I believe has an annual fee of $650. So it was kind of a comedy made out of pocket, but there, there was some rumors that started circulating this week that they more than likely are working on something like this, and it would not surprise me in the least. Yeah.
It's like Delta just can't go premium enough at this point. Like, there's always another level of Delta flyer that's gonna that, you know, could apply for and hold a card like this with an annual fee that looks like 900. Could it be $9.99 annual fee? Like, you know, we've learned anything about access. Yeah.
I think if we've learned anything about die hard Delta Sky Delta Flyers, it's that the sky is the limit and that there's no amount of money that they won't pay in order to get the best of the best with Delta. It is crazy to me just how much premium travel is shaping everything that we talk about and do lately to the point where in The United States, there are, you know, basically two premium airlines, Delta and United, and then everybody else fighting for scraps and racing to try to do something that feels a little bit more premium than what they were doing before, whether it's American Airlines introducing new business class suites and trying to kind of upgrade its offerings or even spirit talking about that they don't just have the Spirit big front seat anymore. They have first class, and they have premium economy now. And Southwest of all airlines is adding, you know, premium extra legroom seats. Every airline in the world is introducing new business class cabins.
Delta has built out four business class lounges in less than a year. Everything right now from credit cards to airlines, and this is part of this bigger ecosystem, you can't really divorce the two when premium travel credit cards are really built on the backs of airlines and airport lounges. Everything is about premium travel right now because that's where the money is clearly. But I think, and I don't think we can answer this today, but I think longer term, the this rush to do more premium, to build better lounges, to have better airports and airplanes is going to have, potentially severe consequences for the travel world as a whole. Like, Like, what does this mean when the entire travel market is basically getting split in two between premium travel and that's what works and then everything else, which is questionable at best?
Yeah. And the motivations for this seem pretty clear. Nick, you sent us a Wall Street Journal story that we'll link to in the show notes, that might just explain exactly why the airlines are doing this. Can you tell us about that? Yeah.
I think the study showed that the top 10% of Americans, which I think they quantified as households making more than $250,000 a year. So the top 10% of households are accounting for more than half of consumer spending right now. That is a crazy statistic. And when you look at that, you know, I think it's it's no it seems obvious why the why the banks are going premium on their on their card, where they're putting their focus. And like Kyle said with, with Delta and United, that is where people are spending the money.
And those are the those are the customers that they want, and they wanna share their wallet. Yeah. So, you know, we met we say this, but you don't have to be in the top, 10% of earners to have a premium travel credit card. You know? You did, however, say in our first podcast that the number one travel hack is don't be poor.
So this is where you finally, 16 episodes later, eat your words. Look. I just went through a kitchen renovation project, and I find myself all of a sudden very poor. So I'm feeling, a lot more for, the Gunnar Olsen, man of the people again. Man of the people again.
So someone like me, a certified man of the people, I can make one or two of these cards work. What is like, how would somebody out there who is interested in a premium credit card, wants to be able to get into the lounge, you know, wants some of these benefits and maybe some of these credits? Like, how do you make a premium credit card like this work? Yeah. I think one of the biggest shifts we're seeing is, you know, the couponization of these cards, which I know we're gonna talk about shortly.
But, you know, to really make the numbers and the math work on these cards, it's requiring a lot of attention and a lot of effort. And I think it's getting to the point where, like, holding more than one of these premium cards is becoming it's becoming too much work. And I'm somebody's saying that does this for a living. But there was a time when I held, you know, the Sapphire Reserve and the MX Platinum together, and I could make that make sense because it wasn't it wasn't a crazy amount of effort. But at the end of the day, you know, I'm holding these premium cards because I want access to a lounge.
And it's really coming down to, okay. So which lounges make sense? Or, you know, where do I travel through I'm gonna be able to access these? And how much work do I wanna put into this? You know, I think it's it's really interesting when you look at the changes that Chase made to the Sapphire Reserve card.
They really started to get away from the monthly annoying credits that AmEx is notorious for. So I think, you know, over the course of a year, I think getting your money back on the Sapphire Reserve in theory is a little easier, than it is with the MX Platinum, but it's it's gonna differ for everybody. So, you know, I think that we're just getting to a point where banks are kind of making you choose a lane for a for a premium card, and they're they're doing everything they can to make you choose their bank. And I think that's by design. And I think that's what you're saying, right, is that they are getting more expensive to be more profitable, but also, getting harder to use in order to justify that higher expense.
And that combination of more expensive and harder to use is forcing by design consumers to choose just one. So they are turning these premium travel credit cards into an anchor to pull you deeper into Chase if you go with the reserve card or pull you deeper into the AmEx ecosystem if you go with the AmEx platinum card or the VentureX for Capital One. Because who in their right mind can juggle, you know, not just doing some math on the fly here. Oh, no. Seven, eight.
Almost $1,500 in annual fee fees. Nailed it. And monthly and, you know, biannual and quarterly and annual credits on each of these two cards in order to justify what you end up paying when the real reason that these banks get you in the door to say, oh, you know what? I bet I can make that work is because of lounge access. That is the carrot.
That is the gateway drug to get people in the door. They have a big bonus, and they have lounge access. And then they've got this big annual fee, but there is this questionable series of benefits that they are banking on you not utilizing in full because how in God's name could you do all of this in order to say, well, you know, I paid $795 a year for this card, but I got $2,000 worth of benefits. There are some people out there who can do that. And for those people, it's a no brainer.
But for everybody else, and it's probably the majority, if not the vast majority, the math becomes really difficult for one card, let alone two. Yeah. I mean, just more than ever, and we've talked about this on the show, but you have to be so organized to make these cards work. And, you know, the Amex platinum card was the first premium travel credit card I got, and that, you know, it's a full time job. It is literally my full time job, thankfully, keeping track of all of these credits, you know.
And a lot of times, I just spend myself or I find myself spending these credits, and I would never have, you know, gone to Saks to go use my $50 twice a year credit at Saks Fifth Avenue. And, you know, do I need that sunscreen that's that high end twice a year? No. But I have a whole tub of, really nice sunscreen that I have to buy from Saks every year to make that stupid credit work. So, you know, maybe that credit will, will help me with my skin someday.
But for now, it's just kind of frustrating that, you do get pigeonholed into using these brands that you otherwise wouldn't. And, you know, I look at the Sapphire Reserve and this new one where it's a $300 dining credit. Sounds great. And it's like, okay. But it's also with the Sapphire Reserve dining collection.
It's like, okay. What's that? Do they have those restaurants in Minneapolis, or is this just for New Yorkers and people in LA? Like, there are so many of these questions where someone looks at, at the list of credits that you might get and be like, well, I can you know, I spent $300 a year at restaurants. Like, I'll get that money back and, you know, a $150 at StubHub, which on its face also seems great, but then there's a time period where you have to use that as well.
And, I understand why people, are looking at some of these cards and doing the math and saying that this is gonna work for them, but the banks know that it's not going to work for you always unless you are really hyper organized and willing to spend at all of these places. I think you made a good point there, Gunnar, and I think that's what makes sometimes it makes these benefits hard to value. Because if you're not spending a $100 a year at Saks Fifth Avenue, you're probably not gonna bet value that benefit at a $100. So shouldn't. Yeah.
You should not. So what is that what is that actually worth to you? That gets, it just gets a little muddy in terms of the mental gymnastics that's required to make these credits work. Well and whether it's Saks Fifth Avenue or Uber or Lyft, Amex and Chase and whoever is banking on you not just using that credit and being done. And you're not spending $50 twice a year at Saks Fifth Avenue if you're using that $100 annual credit on, the Amex Platinum card.
You're probably spending 75 or maybe 200 twice a year in order to use that credit, which is exactly what they're trying to do. And at the same time on the back end, it's not like, you know, Amex is going out and paying Saks Fifth Avenue a $100 every year for each card that they have in order to, you know, have this sponsored benefit. They're probably paying pennies on the dollar, at least nickels, maybe dimes. I don't know what the math is. They don't tell us, but you can bet that they're not paying a $100.
This is a sponsored benefit in order to get people in the door, to get them into this ecosystem, and then spend more than what the credit is there. So whether it's StubHub, you know, for this, you know, $150 credit on the Chase Sapphire Reserve card or any of these benefits, It is a way to get you into the door in a sponsored system that costs them less money or use a travel portal where they get a kickback every single time that you book. So whether you're using their travel credit, they're making money on every single end of this transaction. It is a win for these banks that, you know, create these credit cards and keep piling in these benefits. There is a reason why Chase followed the AmEx model.
In many ways, I think Nick pointed out it's it's a little bit better and more palatable than what AmEx has done in splicing things up so monthly or worse. But at the same time, I think it's undeniable why they're doing this because they know that it is a financially successful model. So I do wanna steer this in just a little bit of a different direction right now. And because this has been, pretty negative, I think we figured that, a lot of people are gonna have a hard time getting the most amount of value that they can out of cards like this. That said, all three of us hold premium travel credit cards, and it's not just because we're fancy boys.
It's because they do have some good value for us in there. You know, the for instance, the way I look at it, and Kyle, you mentioned this, that the anchor to all this is really the lounge access, I think, for most people who hold these cards. Even with a close to $700 annual fee on the years where, I didn't have my first child and I was traveling a lot, the amount of time I spent in airports, I think I could almost justify $700 in just food and drink at the airport a lot of times. You know, and when you have a card like the Capital One Venture x where the annual fee is much, much lower, it's even easier to justify that expense sometimes, especially if you live at a place with a Capital One lounge. But, I guess, what are one or two of the reasons why you guys hold these cards?
I mean, I think we would all agree that lounge access really is the carrot, that it does make your airport experience better even though airport lounges are busier than they've ever been. It is nice. It does save you money. There is some kind of tangible savings there where it helps you justify whatever that upfront annual fee is because it's nice. You're not paying for crappy airport food that costs you know, you can't get out of an airport restaurant for less than a $100 for two these days.
So those savings are real. And then, you know, I think the second element is there has to be some kind of upfront savings on travel. Chase Sapphire Reserve still and to their credit, they're keeping it on this new relaunch card, makes it really easy with that $300 travel credit. Capital One VentureX card makes it a little bit more complicated. You need to actually use their travel portal in order to redeem that, but that has never been a problem for my wife or I in order to use that.
Amex is more annoying still. You know, they have this $200 annual airline fee credit where the ways to actually use that towards travel when booking a flight has gotten much harder, but it's still possible using some of the workarounds, and we'll link, in our show notes an in-depth guide with some of the best ways that I think all three of us use every single year in order to actually get $200 towards travel. There has to be both of those things. Otherwise, I just I can't see myself, you know, stomaching a $795 annual fee, let alone whatever the Amex platinum is about to go to. What about you, Nick?
Yeah. I would say, you know, Gunnar said that this has been a little bit of a negative conversation. But to Capital One's credit, they are absolutely competing on price right now with a $395 card. And I would say that's probably the only one of the three that I would consider holding even without the lounge access. I think I think there's enough there that I could make it work.
I currently hold the business platinum card, which has, the same the same $695 annual fee that the personal card does. And I'm having a hard time getting rid of that card because I've convinced myself being a Delta hub hostage in Minneapolis that I'd need that Sky Club access. The reality is I have three young kids at home, and the amount of times that I actually get to use the Sky Club is just not significant enough that I need to hold on to this card and go through all of the hoops that I need to go through to make it worthwhile. So, you know, I would say outside of the VentureX card, I don't know if I would hold either of those cards with without lounge access. So I think it's absolutely anchored by lounge access, and, you know, the banks the banks know that.
No question. The banks know that, and the banks and airline companies with status and go down the list are just brutally adept at getting us to do things that are not in our own financial self interest to look past actually doing the math of, am I coming out ahead on this annual fee? Am I using all the benefits? And, you know, the three of us at this table probably spend more time than most with notes apps and spreadsheets of kind of checking off boxes to make sure we use these monthly and quarterly and biannual and annual credits on our cards. And still, I mean, this year, I have started to let it go because it's so much to keep track of.
So I'm getting negative again. Sorry, Gunnar. That's okay. Because, that is kinda where I thought the conversation would go, and, I think a lot of people out there probably feel like we feel around this table right now, especially when, you know, if you thought the new Chase Sapphire Reserve was something that you wanted to go after and maybe add to your wallet, and it very well might still be. But you look at all those credits and you're thinking to yourself, how much time am I gonna have to spend keeping track of all these?
And, you know, what am I gonna swipe this card for in the end as well? So a lot to consider, for premium travel credit cards. Anything else in this discussion that we missed, guys? Anything else that Yeah. I would just add that the undercurrent to all of this is breakage.
Right? The banks absolutely know, and they have the data that they can add all these credits and use that as marketing material to say, you know, you open this $795 annual fee, but you get 2,700 in all of these credits and benefits. Like we've talked about, there are very, very few people that are actually maximizing or getting the full $2,700 out of it, and the banks know that. They offer all of these benefits that they know a lot of people are not gonna be able to use, and that's where they come out ahead. And I see this in my life, just the people around me with you know, we'll be out to dinner and we'll be somewhere that I know is a resy restaurant because I pay attention to the stuff.
I'm a nerd. And I see somebody paying with an Amex Gold or a one of the Delta cards, and I are you using your resy credit or benefit? And they have no idea what I'm talking about. So people are holding these cards that offer all these credits and just have no idea that they're available. And so I think it's like you see firsthand how this breakage works and how this model is incredibly profitable for the banks.
Alright. Well, I think, we have we've given people a lot to think about in all of this, but I think we should help one listener in particular if you guys are cool. Let's go to the listener question of the week. Lauren, wants to know, she says, we are just getting started in the world of credit card miles. We already have the entry level Chase Sapphire Preferred and the Chase Freedom Flex.
For a couple that's looking to have only four or five credit cards, what else would you recommend to add to our wallet? Or maybe she says more broadly, for anyone looking to get started, what four to five cards would you recommend starting with? Either of you have any thoughts for Lauren on where she should go next. Thriftytraveler.com/cardpilot. I think we should follow the advice that you angrily gave to all of your friends and family.
That would be the place to start. No. I mean, the two questions that come to mind, and there is some evergreen advice that we can give Lauren and everyone. But, ultimately, these things are very personal based on where you're spending money, what your travel goals are. So that's like, to give a really informed good recommendation to Lauren is gonna require a little bit more information.
But I would just say think about where you're spending the most money. Now the first gap that I see if they have the Chase Sapphire Preferred and the Chase Freedom Flexes, you know, what's a good card that's gonna earn them more points on dining and groceries? So the one that we always recommend to people, which probably would be, you know, my first stop here would be an Amex Gold card. So being able to earn four x points on both, you know, restaurants and, grocery stores fills a big gap and earns a lot of points in one of, if not the biggest sources of spending. And then the other question is, you know, what kind of travel benefits do you want?
Because we could sit here and we could recommend, well, get the Venturex or get the Amex platinum or the new Chase Sapphire Reserve. But, you know, if lounge access just doesn't really move the needle in the same way that it does for us, that kind of falls with a thud. You really don't need to be paying 695, $795 a year if lounge access just isn't something you care about. So I think you gotta start with what you're looking for, what you want, where you're spending the most money, and then kind of build out from there. Yeah.
I would I would agree with everything Kyle said. And I think, you know, two additional points. You know, you wanna stay in a flexible currency. So whether that's the Amex Gold like Kyle suggested or whether that's, you know, either the Venture or VentureX card in addition to your Chase, that kinda helps you diversify your points. And I'd say one other thing that I think is worth looking at, especially for somebody that only wants a four to five credit card portfolio and the Chase five twenty four rule, is not gonna come into play because you're not really worried about opening more cards is, do you check a bag when you fly?
Do you fly with a specific airline often? If that's the case, you know, you're gonna save a lot of money by just holding the airline's cobrand and credit card, even the cheapest version that allows it. So, you know, for example, if it's Delta, the Delta gold card for a $150 a year, you're gonna get free check bags. And if you do that on, you know, more than three trips, you've already come out ahead just by checking the bag, and you don't even have to pay for the check bag on the card. And then Delta's done a good job of kinda getting you into their ecosystem.
They have a benefit called the, take off 15, where if you have a Delta card, as long as it's not the no annual fee blue card, you get a 15% discount on every SkyMiles redemption you make. So they are kind of incentivizing you to hold it, and I think that is that is probably one that is a little outside of the box in terms of a card that makes sense. But I think it's important to consider that if you're flying with a single airline often. Yeah. I was definitely gonna say that too.
If you're in that kind of four to five card range, which I think is, you know, probably more common than we think, especially among people who are listening to a travel podcast, I think there are a lot fewer people who are in the higher echelon, like maybe, us sickos are or, you know, people who are just saying, I want that one card. So a co branded credit card, I think, makes a lot of sense. Mostly, Lauren, I think you're set up in a really good place having a Chase Sapphire Preferred and a Chase Freedom Flex. Earning ultimate rewards already, you have a very low annual fee, but still really great card in the Chase Sapphire Preferred. And, because of that Chase five twenty four rule, you've kinda got your Chase cards out of the way already.
So you're set up very, very nicely. If you want us to answer your question like we just did for Lauren, email us at podcast@traveler.com, and your question might be featured in next week's show. Alright, Kyle. It's your turn to put us on the spot. Alright.
I'm usually pretty cruel with these. I like to watch Gunner squirm, and making Nick squirm would be maybe even more fun. I don't know. But I'm gonna spare you guys the pain. I am sitting next to a pair of girl dads.
Nick, you have three girls, one of which just turned five, and Gunner, brand new newborn girl. So tell me, to put you on the spot, what's your favorite part about being a dad? You gotta you have to go first. You have so much more experience than I do. I okay.
I guess that's fair. I would say for, like, fifteen days. Yeah. What's your what's the best part of being a dad for the last two and a half weeks? I'll go first.
I will say, watching them or watching their experiences through your eyes. So I think one thing that, like, their birthdays, which, like you said, my middle daughter just had her fifth birthday yesterday, just watching how excited she was to turn five or even, like, Christmas morning when just the excitement that you kinda get to relive it all over again. So that's been that's been really fun, and, I'm sure Gunnar has a lot of those moments in his future. Yeah. I think that is actually my answer.
I think my wife and I have spent so much time, together in the last few weeks just projecting forward, like, what could this person become? And that's been so cool. And, obviously, right now, she's still pretty much a potato, just a blob, and she doesn't even smile yet. And so we just have so we have so many ideas of what of what our little Emery could be. And that's been really fun just to sit there, watch her sleep, and think about what, what a life with Emery is gonna look like for us.
So that's been really cool. But with, about, like I said, sixteen days of fatherhood under my belt, I don't have anything wise to say quite yet. So that's a good one, Kyle. Good on the spot. Thank you for that.
I think that's gonna be it for us. Thank you so much for listening to the Thrifty Traveler podcast. Please rate us five stars in your podcast platform of choice and head over to YouTube so you can see our beautiful new studio. Like and subscribe to the show there as well. And then, send this episode to somebody you know who needs a vacation or needs to rethink their credit card portfolio.
If you have some feedback for us, we also really would like to hear that podcast at thrifty traveler dot com is our email. Send us some feedback. Send us a question. We'd love to hear from you there. Kyle, tell us about the Thrifty Traveler podcast team.
This episode was produced by our senior editor, Jackson Newman, and your favorite host and brand new girl dad, Gunnar Olsen. It was edited by David Strutt. Our theme music is by Benjamin T. Sell. Gunnar, we'll see you next week.
Nick, we're gonna have you back sometime soon. Thanks for having me on, guys. See you.