So much changes so fast in the world of points and miles, it’s easy to lose track. So in this episode of the Thrifty Traveler Podcast, the guys go through (almost) every single airline loyalty program and decide: Are they trending up or are they down? But they need some help, so flight deal analyst Katie Rollins joins to break things down … and also shares a legendary travel mishap. The gang also sorts through some hotel points programs and helps a listener deal with their PreCheck-less travel companions.
So much changes so fast in the world of points and miles, it’s easy to lose track. So in this episode of the Thrifty Traveler Podcast, the guys go through (almost) every single airline loyalty program and decide: Are they trending up or are they down? But they need some help, so flight deal analyst Katie Rollins joins to break things down … and also shares a legendary travel mishap. The gang also sorts through some hotel points programs and helps a listener deal with their PreCheck-less travel companions.
Download SAILY's app and use code THRIFTY at checkout to get an exclusive 15% off your first purchase! For further details go to https://saily.com/thrifty ⛵
Join the conversation! Sign up for the free Thrifty Traveler Podcast Slack community today.
00:00 - Introducing Katie Rollins (& her trip to Iceland)
02:20 - Matt & Annika welcome us back from Albania!
03:15 - Something Hot: Leading Hotels of the World
06:15 - Something Cold: The Hyatt-Chase transfer “D-Day”
09:20 - A word from our sponsor, Saily!
10:15 - The best Thrifty Traveler Premium hotel & flight deals
11:30 - Our rankings: Who’s up and who’s down in airline loyalty programs
45:45 - The etiquette of ditching your non-PreCheck friends
48:15 - Revisiting Katie’s brutal rental car mistake in Iceland
53:30 - On the Spot: Luxury flights or hotels?
Produced and edited by Sylvia Thomas
Video editing by Kyle Thomas
Show music: “All That” by Benjamin Tissot
Yo, welcome to the show. I'm Gunnar and that's Kyle, but today we are leveling up. Joining us in the middle seat, she is Thrifty Traveler's resident foodie adventurer. She's our incredible points and miles deal analyst for Thrifty Traveler premium flight and hotel alerts. It's Katie Rawlins. Katie, welcome to the show. How are you? Wow, thanks. I'm doing great. That was such a nice intro. Okay, we have Katie here on the show today because she is more immersed in airline and hotel points and miles programs than just about anybody on Earth, I would say. So we wanted to tap her expertise to discuss who's up and who's down in travel rewards right now. But first, Katie, I, I need to find something out, as we do in every show. How was Iceland? You just got back. It was great. Honestly, yeah, you can't go wrong with a trip to Iceland. It's been on my list for a long time, and finally made it happen because of one of our deals. You know, we like to say we get high on our own supply, so, you know, I just had to book it. But it was so fun. It was a girls' trip. It was pretty much a long... We were there for three days, basically a long weekend trip, which honestly, I think Iceland is underrated for a weekend trip because it was only a six-hour flight from here, not that far, and you just, when you land, you just get right to it. So honestly, it was a great time. Can't complain. Gunnar I actually used part of your guide that you have on the website- Oh, wow ... to plan my trip, so thank you for that. Not the whole thing, but just took some things here and there and added a few different things in there. But- Which parts did you, which parts of my guide did you not like and that you left out? No, I'm kidding. Um, honestly, I don't remember. I looked at so many things. But basically we just did the Golden Circle and then, like, the southern coast, which was great. And we even saw the northern lights, which I wasn't expecting at all, but we had fantastic weather the whole time, so, you know. So you bought a lottery ticket when you got home. Yeah, basically- Yeah ... I got a lottery ticket. Sunny, ba- some of the time there was, like, not even a cloud in the sky, all blue skies, sunset, and then you just see the northern lights come out, and it was incredible. Oh. So. That, that is- Super fun ... spectacular. Okay, so I also heard through the grapevine that you had an all-time travel mistake on this trip, and I want you to tell us that story at the end of the episode. Today on the show we're looking at who's up and who's down in hotel and airline award programs, and we're gonna help a listener solve maybe the most annoying airport conundrum, too. All that and more. Hello, this is Matt and... Annika. From Valbona Valley National Park in Albania. Welcome back to the Thrifty Traveler podcast Okay, introducing the show this week was Matt and Annika who are at Valbona National Park in northern Albania. And I'll be honest, I did not know Albania had mountains like that. That was such a cool video. What a spectacular view and what a good day. Is Albania on either of your radars? Have either of you been? I have looked into it. Oh, okay. But I have not been yet, so. All right. It's on my radar, but not- On your radar now, Kyle? I'm gonna go try and visit Dua Lipa. Oh. That's where she's from. No, Albania has been on our, on, in my wife's list for as long as I can remember. Still haven't made it there, so apparently it's not as high as it should be. Okay, well, we have Matt and Annika's email address if you ever need some recommendations for Albania. Let's get into something hot and something cold, a look at the good and the bad news out there for travelers right now, and we're gonna start with something hot. So Katie, while we have you here, you head up Thrifty Traveler Premium Plus Hotel alerts. Uh, you help us dig out the best and rarest hotel award availability all over the world. What has you most excited in hotel awards right now? Honestly, this isn't necessarily super new news, but fairly recent with Amex adding Leading Hotels of the World as a transfer partner. It does look kinda scary because it's a four-to-one ratio, so you transfer, like, 4,000 points and you only get 1,000. But their rates are super reasonable online, and I think it's just, it creates a really interesting opportunity to book more unique boutique properties that maybe you wouldn't find when you're just keeping with the big four hotel chains. And honestly, Max Miles Points, our friend Max, he created a really cool guide that shows, um, like, the cents-per-point ratio, how much Amex points you have to transfer, whether the properties charge taxes and fees, 'cause some of them do. I know Jackson did, like, a writeup in the Extra Mile or potentially for the site about that. So just kinda helps you evaluate what is good or what might work for you, what might not. But that's been a really interesting resource that I've been looking at lately and potentially considering booking one myself soon. Nice. What are you looking at? Um, potentially... Well, I'm thinking if I go to Costa Rica next year, I was talking to someone, and they had booked this property called the Nayara Tented Camp. It's, like, in the jungle, this, like, bungalow over the trees with, like, its own infinity pool. It looks so cool. So it's, like, 60-something Amex points a night, so it's not cheap, but it looks really nice. Nice. So honestly, if you're, you know, running out of Chase points, I'd say that's a good option to look into. I like that. Leading Hotels of the World now transferable from Amex. Kyle, what are you excited about in hotels right now? I mean, same as Katie. I think once you get past the seeming sticker shock of transferring, you know, 10,000 Amex points and only getting 2,500, you start to see, well, some of these properties just charge criminally cheap rates that are cheaper than y- you know, what a comparable Hyatt would charge in many cases. So there's, like, a ton of value here for, I think especially for Amex points, where the hotel redemptions just aren't that great So that's really promising. For me, I'm still just really high on Hilton, I think in large part because of these credit card offers that they rolled out in late summer and will extend all the way through the, the end of 2026, where even on their no annual fee cards, you can get some points and a free night certificate. That's just, it's such a powerful one-two punch when it comes to hotels that right off the bat you've probably got at least two nights in a solid property. That, that's just really hard nowadays for the big hotel chains. Yeah, definitely. All right, let's flip it. Let's do something called, Katie, who do you think is down in hotels right now? What, what programs are, uh, are we wary of at the moment? Well, honestly, I mean, we did call it today's D-Day for, in Hyatt world. Um, unfortunately the Chase Sapphire Preferred is now... I mean, everyone that has that card now is only able to transfer on a four to three ratio instead of one to one. So I would say personally that's down. A lot of us here love the Chase Sapphire Preferred, love transferring points to Hyatt. And basically if you're someone that transfers a lot of points to Hyatt, you essentially just have to have the Chase Sapphire Reserve. And I wouldn't say that card makes sense for everyone. Obviously the first year for the sign-up bonus it does, but with all the credits and everything, you kinda just have to see whether it's worth it for you or not. And if you are transferring a lot of points to Hyatt, maybe just paying that big annual fee is worth it to you. Um- So, I don't know. I would say that's down for me. It's kind of unfortunate news, but it is, that's just the name of the game- Yep ... in the points and miles world. Yeah, this morning is October 1st, so the Hyatt transfer, or the CSP transfers to Hyatt are all four to three now, which is very, very sad. Kyle, I assume you're down on the same thing. You love to be negative. What are you down on? Yeah. I'm down not just on Hyatt, but on Chase overall as a result of this because l- I, to a fault, transferred and only transferred Chase points to Hyatt for many years. Just rarely redeemed Chase points elsewhere. And, you know, this has been a one-two punch. I would say it's been a one, two, three punch where, yes, this transfer ratio is now worse for my Chase Sapphire Preferred card. Going back into May when Hyatt revamped its award chart, most of the properties, at least that I care about, got significantly more expensive. And what we feared at the time is when they made that change into this new five-tier award bucket, was that it would only get worse, that more and more properties, especially at the top end, would end up pricing out at those 60, 75,000 price tiers that, pricing that didn't exist before. Before the top end was 45, 45,000 points. Lo and behold, we started crunching the numbers again a couple of months after this big Hyatt changeover, and that's exactly what's starting to happen. More of these top-tier Hyatts are now pricing out in the upper and top absolute, absolutely egregious pricing tiers for some of these properties where at the most you would pay 45,000 points for even the busiest night, for the most expensive stay. Many more of those now are pricing out at 75,000. It's, it's only gotten worse since that change was announced in the spring, and when you combine that with this transfer ratio, it's just, it's hard to be excited about Hyatt period anymore. Yeah, I totally agree, and I think that the kinda middle class of Hyatt redemptions is really where all the value is, where it used to be those best hotels in their system. And now for that kind of a stay, that super luxe stay, I'm looking at Hilton more and more instead of Hyatt, so. And you're, you're not a middle class guy at all. Definitely not. No. I want the Econo Lodge or I want the Park Hyatt Tokyo, and I don't want anything in between. All right, we need to talk about who's up and who's down in airline programs next, but first we're gonna take a quick break. All right, it's time for the Extra Mile where we dig a little deeper on an important travel topic. And because Katie is with us today, the Extra Mile is brought to you by the flight and hotel deal alert subscription that she helps make great every single day. That's Thrifty Traveler Premium. Katie, what is the best hotel deal and what is the best flight deal we've sent in the past few weeks? What can you stop, not stop thinking about? Honestly, all of the Japan Airlines miles redemptions I can't stop thinking about, but specifically flying from LAX to Tahiti on Air France for only 85,000 miles round trip is just insane to me. And I don't have enough Japan Airlines miles right now, but that's one I wanted to book so bad. Yeah, I- So- I also can't stop thinking about that deal. It's, it's pretty crazy as well. What about hotels? What are you looking at in hotels? For hotels, I would have to say Kalala Island. That's one that whenever we send it, I'm just like, "Why have I not been there yet?" Why have I not spent the, my Hilton points on it? And our, um, one of our colleagues, Tracy, actually just wrote up an awesome review on the site. And after I read it, I was like, "Wow, I've, yeah, I need to make this happen at some point." That's awesome. If you wanna book those deals and see the next one, sign up for premium today at thriftytraveler.com/premium. Use promo code TTPOD for $20 off your first year. Okay, so let's start digging into the various airline programs from around the world. I suspect for most of them it'll be a quick, you guys are just gonna give me an up or a down as to how we feel about this program right now. We're gonna focus on the miles you can easily earn from transferable bank programs like Amex and Chase and Capital One, so niche programs like Lufthansa Miles and More and Air India Maharaja Points are not gonna be in the mix here. So we're gonna go alphabetically and stop at the ones that we think more discussion, and top of our alphabetical list is gonna be Aer Lingus, Air Club, Avios, transferable from Amex, Bilt, Chase, and Wells Fargo. What do we think, up or down on Aer Lingus Avios? Down, I think, because I don't ... There's, there's n- n- rarely if ever a situation where it would make sense to transfer points to Aer Lingus to book a flight, where you would be much better off using any of the other Avios programs, like British Airways, Iberia, Qatar, Finnair. Yeah. That actually made sense. I was gonna say up, mostly just because it's Avios, and you can just transfer within the program. So, like, if you had miles stuck in Aer Lingus, it's not the end of the world, 'cause you can just move them. But I agree with what Kyle said. If you can just transfer directly to British Airways or Finnair, that's the better route to go. But- Nice. Okay ... I'm, I'm fine on Aer Lingus. I like that. A resounding meh. A resounding middle. Yeah. Um, I guess I can break the ties on these if we want to. Yeah. That's true. Yeah, you be the tiebreaker. I'm gonna break the tie. I'm going with Katie. I think that just having Avios, you can't strand those points, so it's kind of a- Yeah a nice ... And you can transfer from a lot of places. Let the record show I will be keeping score of how many times you break the tie against me. It's gonna be really hard for me to break the tie for you, I promise you that. Aeromexico Rewards points, you can transfer them from Amex and Capital One. Man, I don't think about Aeromexico Rewards ever. What say you? Uh, I'm gonna go down on that one. Okay. I can't say I've ever looked to booking a flight with Aeromexico Rewards points. Yeah. It's, it's so niche, and I think some people are lured in by the fact that it's not a one-to-one transfer ratio from Amex. You get more Aer- Aeromexico points. It doesn't matter. It's not enough to offset. There are way better SkyTeam programs to redeem, whether you're trying to fly Aeromexico itself or Delta or Air France or whatever. It's just, it's not worth anyone's attention. Okay. I suspect we're gonna have opinions on this one. Air Canada Aeroplan points transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One and Chase. Katie, what do you think about Air Canada Aeroplan right now? Honestly, lately it's kinda down for me. Mostly just because they raised their award rates on business class flights. Um, and United recently made them, like, match their, th- their rates. And so I just, to me, if I'm gonna book, like, a United economy flight, I guess if I don't have any Chase points or United miles or Bilt points, then I will transfer to Air Canada, but it's not the first program I'm looking at booking stuff with nowadays. Yeah. I think for years it was the runaway winner in the Star Alliance because it had the best rates, it had reasonable award fees, and so many airline partners, including some that aren't in the Star Alliance. So there still is value there, but it's not what it used to be. Yeah. And I think especially because we're increasingly seeing other Star Alliance airlines get stingier with award availability, specifically to programs like Air Canada Aeroplan- Yep because they know North American travelers want to book with th- those Aeroplan points. So there's just a lot of Ls in the Aeroplan column over the last couple of years. So I'm with Katie on this one. Down. Okay, we're down on Aeroplan. Next one, Air France KLM Flying Blue Miles, transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, Chase, Citi, and Wells Fargo. Up or down on Flying Blue right now? I'm torn Yeah, I would say in a normal world, I'm normally up on this one because it's a great way to book Delta flights. I mean, as, uh, we're stuck in Minneapolis in a Delta hub, so super easy way to book flights, but they just nuked their, their whole program for booking Air France or KLM flights to Europe. Um, well, they didn't nuke their whole program, but they just raised their award rates, and for the lowest rates, they took away all of the nice perks that come with them. So I'm gonna say down for right now. Okay. Kyle? Can I- I'm, I would give it another meh. Okay. You know? Yeah. I, because of everything Katie just said. Still a lot of positives for the reasons that I typically use Air France-KLM Flying Blue miles the most, there's still way more upside. Yeah. The downside recently is undeniable. Yeah. No, I totally agree on the upside. I still use this program all the time, but the taxes and fees creep over the last few years as well would make me lean towards breaking the tie for a down vote there. Uh, the next one, Alaska Airlines mileage plan miles transferable from Bilt. Up or down? Katie, go with you. That's an up for me. Yep. I mean, their rates are so good just for booking even just, like, OneWorld partners. They, Alaska's also adding their own, like, transatlantic routes, and they just added last year their flights to Korea and Japan. So it's a no-brainer for me. I'm trying to get more Alaska miles. It's up. Yep. Kyle? I'm up, too, with the important caveat that I think you have to look at these things relatively, and I think Alaska is up not because it's genuinely gotten better, but many others have gotten worse, and the value's still more or less the same with Alaska. So I'm always thinking about, how can I earn more Alaska miles? How can I add to that stash? Is it worth getting a Bilt card in order to be able to transfer to them or to another program? Is it worth trying to get an Alaska card even though I've flown Alaska Airlines once in my entire life? Yeah. All right, let's move on. Alaska gets a thumbs up from us. American Airlines AAdvantage miles transferable now from Citi. What do we think? Up or down? It's up for me Yeah I mean, it's been up. It's, it's staying up I think that we- I mean, we've been seeing it for years. The hammer is coming down on AAdvantage- Yeah ... at some point. Their partner award chart to fly Qatar Airways and Japan Airlines and Cathay Pacific has not changed in literally one decade. That is a lifetime- Yeah ... in this world. It is only a matter of time, but for now, I think especially with the introduction of being able to transfer points from Citi within the last, what, couple of months, year- Yeah that, that is, that is way up until it's not. Yeah, so basically burn your AA miles ASAP. Yeah, do not hoard your AA miles. AA, you're doing an amazing job. Everybody loves you. Just remember that. Keep things the way they are, please. We'll move on. ANA Mileage Club miles transferable from American Express. ANA, thoughts? For me, ANA is up, at least f- I mean, obviously there's the two-day transfer window from Amex, so that is not the best. But it's really great for booking Star Alliance partners to Europe. I mean, it's like 50,000 miles each way or 100,000 round trip. Pretty great rates in my opinion. Obviously you're gonna wanna look for the routes that are more stable and less, um, like the dates aren't just gonna disappear immediately. Mm-hmm. But, um, all r- we all know St. Peter. I think he has a rule where he always keeps 100,000 ANA miles in his account at all times just because the rates are so good, and if he ever sees something that he wants to book, he can just do it immediately. Peter does that, like we keep an ice scraper in the car in the winter. He just keeps 100,000 ANA miles in his account- Yeah ... just in case. Uh, Kyle, ANA? I'm really torn on this one. I think o- on the whole, compared against the rest of the list, ANA is still up. Still a very solid program, a lot of value, especially for the redemptions that Katie talked about, especially for booking other airlines in the Star Alliance for less than you can book through basically any other program. Downside, booking ANA itself, even using ANA Mileage Club miles, has gotten darn near impossible, unless if you're booking economy to Japan. United Polaris award space has evaporated from every single program on this list. That was the easiest one to book with ANA miles for 50,000 miles each way. So there's some back and forth here. On the whole, I'm up, but I would say it's trending downward. Yeah. I'm also super torn. Just that two-day transfer, I like to keep my points as flexible as possible until the very last minute, and that two-day transfer window makes me a little nervous. I think I will also go down just 'cause of those recent changes and the, the lack of Polaris space is a little annoying. Uh, speaking of lack of Polaris space, Avianca Lifemiles is our next one, transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, Citi, and Wells Fargo. Where are we at on Avianca Lifemiles, Lifemiles, Lifemiles? I s- I saw what you did there. Yeah. Good work. Um, I'm gonna say down on Lifemiles. It's just every time I've tried to use my Lifemiles, something has come up and I've had to cancel. This has been like three times. And if any of y'all know anything about canceling with Lifemiles, it's the biggest headache. So- I'm gonna say down. Not that they don't have bad rates because they're pretty good, but pretty much you just need to be locked in. You're going on the trip regardless. You, you, there's no... You shouldn't need any flexibility, just you're gonna go on the trip unless you want a long grueling phone call or multiple. That's, that's my two cents. Who doesn't? If you love spending three hours on hold, you are gonna love- Yeah ... booking with Avianca LifeMiles. Yeah. I'll put it this way, we- we've had a line on our site for years that Avianca LifeMiles is quirky and the customer service is darn near atrocious, but you put up with it because the rates are so amazing and the deals are so good. Problem now is that the rates aren't as amazing as they used to be. They've raised award rates a couple of times over the past two years, so there are other programs where you can book for similar rates in the Star Alliance, and they're not getting the same availability that they used to exactly for the reason that airplane is. A lot of airlines have decided just not to share their, especially premium cabin award space, with Avianca LifeMiles, including most recently, what, all of the Lufthansa group airlines? Yeah, it's like Lufthansa, Swiss. I mean, they're... You can't even book one there anymore. So I just can't see a reason, unless something changes, where I would ever book with LifeMiles again for all of these reasons, so it's down bad. Yeah. Down bad. All right, but- I will say their site is great to search on, though. If you need to search for stuff, searching on LifeMiles is good. Okay. Good shout. Next one, British Airways, Avios transferable from Amex, Built, Capital One, Chase, and Wells Fargo. Where are we at on BA Avios? It's up for me. Yeah. Yeah. Up. The ability to share Avios between all of them with BA being kinda the mother hub, if you will- Mm-hmm ... for all of them is great. Okay, we'll keep it tidy for BA Avios. Cathay Pacific Asia Miles, transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, and Citi. Where are we at on Asia Miles? Honestly, I think I'll say up. They have raised their rates a couple times in the past, specifically on their own flights, but it's still not a bad way to book One World partners like American Airlines or others. I mean, honestly, it's pretty good. And you can... They do have a really great chat line on WhatsApp, and they are pretty great for booking over the phone, pretty competent agents, which is... We're calling people all the time. So from my end it's, they're great. Do you know any airline representatives by name? No. Okay. Peter might, though. Peter probably does. Peter probably does. More importantly, those airlines probably know Peter by name. Yeah, they're probably like, "Oh, this guy again." Yeah. Like, "What's he gonna ask?" Um, I, I'm also torn on this one. I think if you want to fly Cathay Pacific from the United States to Hong Kong, you, you need it, so you gotta be up on this program, and it stinks that the award rates are higher, but you kinda gotta do it. On the other hand, I think another program on this list has really outshone Cathay Asia Miles for ways to book One World, so on the whole I'm gonna say down overall. Still value here, but not as much as there used to be. We will get there for sure. All right, here's a little program you may have never heard of, Delta Sky Miles, transferable from American Express. How do we feel about Delta today? I am pro Delta SkyMiles, let the record show. I don't know if other people have maybe heard that on this podcast. Yeah. I think this is the first time you've mentioned it actually, Kyle. Yeah, I think so. Um, I would say up overall. I mean, it's a really good program for, like especially if you live in a smaller airport, like being able to book flights from your home airport and not have to drive an hour and a half, two hours just to get to your nearest large international hub, I'd say it's pretty great. For me, I'm not as much on the Delta train as everyone else, but I still see a ton of value in it, especially when they have their flash sales. I think it's good. I mean, I did also just sign up for another Delta card recently. So I am still like, you know, I'm like, "Okay, I need to have some more Delta SkyMiles." We're all hostages at this point. I know, we are. I mean- At the end of the day. We all have Stockholm Syndrome. Yeah. We've got MSP as our airport, we gotta have some SkyMiles. But yeah, I would say generally up for me. Being not on the SkyMiles train, in your words, but signing up for another SkyMiles card- ... is a wild, wild swing there. And- It is. Um, okay, let's move on to Emirates Skywards Miles transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, and Citi. Where are we on Emirates? Katie, I'll start with you. Down. Down. Yeah. I- I'm struggling to think of an airline program that's down worse than Emirates. Yeah. Everything that they have done, they have made intentional decisions that say, "We don't want your points anymore." Which is, that's fine, but they're not gonna get my points, period. They have raised award rates, they have drastically raised fees, they've cut transfer ratios. There's not, there probably can't be a program on this list that's down worse than Emirates. Emirates down the very worst. Uh, let's talk about Etihad Guest Miles, transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, and Citi. How do we feel about Etihad? I mean, I think Etihad's down there with Emirates, honestly. It's, yeah, it's not good for me. Yep. Yeah. Uh, they, they took what Emirates has done and then they also layered in the fact that if you wanna cancel an award ticket- Yeah ... you might forfeit all of your miles. Yeah. Um, it's pretty gross. So yeah, they're, they're in a, they're both circling the drain together racing to see who- ... gets flushed first. That escalating cancellation policy thing where it's like if you book a month out it's something, if you book three weeks, I mean that is so frustrating and just, yeah, very not consumer friendly. Let's talk about EVA Air Infinity MileageLand's miles, maybe the best name in all of airline loyalty, transferable from Capital One and Citi. Where are we at on EVA? I mean, I think they definitely win for most unique name- ... for their loyalty program. Um, but for me I'd say up generally, because, I mean, you can transfer from Capital One and from Citi, although it's not one, one-to-one from Capital One. They're really great for booking their own flights, and they're really reasonable rates, and the availability's pretty wide open, so I would say generally up. Yeah, I'd say way up. I would love to see Capital One make that transfer ratio one to one. Yeah. That might be wishful thinking, but I, I'm a total EVA Air fanboy. I love this airline. I've booked their business class. I think it's one of the best business class flights in the world for those 15-plus hour flights to Taipei when you really need it. It is the only way to book EVA Air now, uh, especially for two passengers. So for that reason alone, the, the booking process, not for the faint of heart, let's say. I think it, uh, has actually gotten easier. You can add your, like, travel companion or travel partner on, on the website- Okay ... and do it that way. We troubleshooted it a few, I don't know, it was like a month or two ago. It actually has gotten much easier. Before you had to, like, fill out, like, an actual piece of paper and upload or email it to someone. I don't know. Apparently it was really complicated, but it's much easier now. So- So EVA Air has joined the 21st century. Yes, they have. So it's up even more. Great. Yep. Love to hear it. Okay. EVA is up. Finnair plus Avios, transferable from Capital One and of course from all the other Avios miles programs. Where are we at on Finnair? All the way up for me. Up, up, up. At the top. They, uh, they caught wind of, of you and Peter's find of Yeah ... Hawaiian first class for 26,000 miles, um, and cut that. That's a bummer, but otherwise, so much value for booking both Finnair and One World Airlines here, especially American here in the United States. Probably the best way other than Alaska to book many of those flights. The fact that, you know, you're not gonna see many, if any, transfer bonuses from Capital One direct to Finnair, but pick a month and most of them are gonna have a 30% bonus from, you know, Chase to British Airways- Oh, yeah ... or Amex to Iberia, and then you kick those over into your Finnair account and you're booking stuff at an even steeper discount. Way up. On the same token, Iberia Club Avios, transferable from Amex, Bilt, Chase, Wells Fargo, and all the other Avios currencies as well. Iberia? I'd say the same level as Aer Lingus Eh I'm fine with it Generally up, it's Avios for me, so Yep. Super meh Big fan It is all the same, Avios. Okay, I suspect we're gonna talk about this one a little extra. Japan Airlines Mileage Bank miles transferable from Bilt and Capital One. Kyle, I know that you are way, way, way up on Japan Airlines miles. What makes you say that? I have, I've barely talked about this ever. Every episode since mid-July, I think, uh, you've mentioned Japan Airlines Mileage Bank. Yeah, I was gonna say, Katie needs to take the lead on this one because I think our listeners might actually kill me if I say anything more. Yeah, I mean, if it's all the way up for me, it's at the very top at this point. I mean, being able to book, obviously Japan Airlines flights themselves for lower rates, if you can, if you can find the 55,000 rates, that's amazing. But you can h- book them f- anywhere from like 70,000 all the way up to like 110,000 and there's way more availability. So that's great. Obviously booking partners, LATAM also it's like a great way to get to South America if that's on your list. That is one of the ways that you can book LATAM business class. I've j- recently flew it and it was a great time. Um, also Air France, you gotta pick up the phone for this one, but booking... I, I, we prefaced this in our little Extra Mile thing- Mm-hmm ... or the last segment, and being able to fly from LA to Tahiti for only 85,000 miles round trip is insane. Yeah. Round trip. That round trip discount is a game changer. I think Air France itself now charges like 200, no, 120,000 miles each way- Yeah ... for those flights from LA to Tahiti, at the least. Yep. And you can see it f- up north of 200,000. It's crazy. Yeah. This is, this is up as high as it gets with the most important caveat that it is only a matter of time before all of this comes crashing down. So if you have a bunch of Capital One points or Bilt points or Citi points and some of these things sound good to you, you gotta book it now. Yep. Time to get book, C. Take advantage. Okay, let's move on to JetBlue TrueBlue points transferable from Amex, Capital One, Chase, Citi, and Wells Fargo. We may have a little bit of Midwest bias against this one, but, uh, w- what are your thoughts on JetBlue TrueBlue, TrueBlue? Don't poison the well on this. Let Katie and I speak. Okay, sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, at the bottom for me. I mean, it's, it's down. I've, yeah, I can't say I'm looking to book with JetBlue anytime soon. It's, yeah I mean, to zag here, I'm up. Really? I, you know, they have some interesting partners that are actually worth booking, and occasionally, occasionally good deals for JetBlue itself. I mean, we've seen flights, round trip flights, not from our home, but other airports down to Florida for less than 1,000 JetBlue points round trip. Yeah, that one last year, 750- Yeah ... miles each way on that deal to Orlando. That was crazy. They've made some interesting partnerships with, like, Condor for some great deals to fly Condor business class- Yeah over to Frankfurt. That is the best way to book it with, if you have Chase points, is through JetBlue. They- If you can find it. It's pretty slim pickings nowadays. It's hard to find the awards space, but JetBlue gets more Qatar Qsuites awards space than any other program on this list. They, they will often charge you more, but if that's what you have, it's an option. So I'm, I'm up on JetBlue. I think there's gonna be more to, to like from this program too, is my guess. Okay. I'm convinced. You broke the tie, Kyle. I know. You might have swayed me a bit. All right. All right. Hey. We're up, we're up on JetBlue. How 'bout Qantas frequent flyer points, transferable from Amex, Capital One, and Citi? Qantas. Your thoughts? Down. Down. I, I rarely think about Qantas. I use their website sometimes to find Oneworld award availability or Emirates award availability. That's kind of it. I've never redeemed these points. I don't know that I ever will. Yeah. I mean, if you're really set on flying Qantas itself, that's an easier way to find Qantas business class ability. It's also one of the only ways to find Air Tahiti Nui at the very end of calendar. Mm. So if you're looking to fly Air Tahiti Nui to Tahiti, that is a great way to book it with points. But other than that- If you say to yourself, "You know what I wanna do? I wanna fly to Tahiti and back, but I wanna pay more miles than- Yeah what Japan Airlines would charge me" Yeah ... then Qantas frequent flyer miles are yours. Yep. Exactly. So, so yeah. Well, okay, let's go to Qatar Airways Privilege Club Avios transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, and Citi. Gunnar as the most privileged person at this table- What do you think? Uh, I think Qatar Avios are down just because of these strange new rules that they have implemented and walked back some on, but basically it's just made me think enough that it, I'm down on them. What about you? Yeah, I'm kinda down. I mean, obviously if you get through the loopholes and you, you know, get that squared away, then you're fine. It is a great way to book a lot of partner programs, and so generally I'd normally say up, but they're, they just added some more hoops to jump through, so kinda down. The hoops are annoying, not as annoying as they were before they walked back- Yeah ... the worst of them where you needed, what, qualifying activity earned in the program and not by transferring points in from a major bank. That wouldn't count, but that's no longer there. I would say I'm on the whole up, maybe just not as much as I would've been, like, earlier this year. Okay. Singapore Airlines KrisFlyer miles transferable from Amex, Capital One, Chase, and Citi. Where are we at on Singapore? I'd say I'm down on Singapore. I mean, there's not really a great way to... I mean, you can book Star Alliance partners with Singapore miles, they're just, the rates are just kinda meh. And they've raised their own rates for their own flights flying Singapore Air so unless it's on your bucket list, like I really must fly Singapore, then that's the best way to do it. But other than that, I'd say down. Yeah, down. They charge high rates unless if, I think Katie's put it perfectly, unless if you need to fly Singapore business or first class and you have a ton of points saved to do it. Yeah. There's not, not a ton of value here. Some very niche things. You can fly within Europe in business class, including Istanbul all the way over to Madrid or something. If something like that isn't on your list, then there's not a lot to explore here. Okay. Southwest Airlines Rapid Rewards points, transferable from both Bilt and Chase. What do you guys think about Rapid Rewards? Honestly, I'd say up. There are some really great Rapid Rewards sales that happen, and if you're looking to fly somewhere domestically or even, like, Hawaii, it's a great option if you have Chase points or Bilt points. There ha- There was recently a transfer bonus from Chase. So I'd say it's good, especially with the companion pass too. I mean, it's a solid program, especially for families. Yeah, since they decoupled the cash price from the points price, and now it's still... They usually are close in some way, but they've, you know, officially decoupled the two where it used to be that Rapid Rewards rates were always tied exactly to the cash price at some calculation that I couldn't do and didn't know. But I think it's actually made the sales better, uh, in some cases, and it's made the Rapid Rewards rates just a little more, um, regular, easier to figure out. I got, you know, I, I talked about going to the White Sox game in Chicago where I flew to Midway for 2,000 Rapid Rewards each way, which was so awesome and- That's a great redemption I love that redemption, so that's still fresh in my mind. I'll give them an up vote too. I'd go up for the most niche, not broadly applicable redemption maybe of all time, which is inter island Hawaii flights, where it doesn't matter how far in advance you book it or what the cash price is, whether it's n- the norm of $50 or $250, it is always 4,000 Rapid Rewards miles each way. It's the only place that I could find in its entire network where it works this way, and you can pay 4,000 miles for a basic fare or 4,000 miles for a standard economy fare. So there's just... It's so weird. Uh, it, it shouldn't count, but I booked this recently, so I'm feeling good about Southwest. Yeah. All right, next one. Spirit Airlines Free Spirit points transferable from Bilt. How are we feeling about Spirit Free Spirit points? Oh, RIP. Yeah. Rest in peace. I think they're six foot under. They are. Yeah. We- Six foot down. Six foot down. I, I absolutely love that Bilt added Spirit as a transfer partner in December of 2025 when it was clear to everybody here and everybody listening to this that Spirit was going under. So it's like, "Great. Thanks, guys. Love this option." I think we got a, a listener question in our podcast email inbox about a year ago now of some guy who had something like 3 million Spirit miles and was like, "What do you guys think I should do with these?" And we didn't reply 'cause I have no idea what you could possibly do with 3 million Spirit miles, and I just really hope that guy got to do some flying before this all went away. A lot of flying. Yeah. All right. Wow. TAP Air Portugal Miles&Go miles transferable from Bilt and Capital One. Do you each ever think about TAP Air Portugal miles? No, I can't say I think about TAP. I have read that it's a pretty good way to book economy flights to Portugal, so if you're just looking for a cheap economy flight to Portugal, it's a good way to do it. But Yeah, I can't say that I'm transferring to Tap It's been years since I've looked into this program and its award chart. I vividly remember spending a couple hours and being like, "Well, that was a waste of my time." Um, so maybe that's changed. This is the thing, programs that are down right now can easily be up a month from now if the thinking changes about what they wanna do with those points and how they wanna engage with frequent flyers. But for now, I just don't think it's really worth much people's attention. Yeah. Agreed. All right, we're in the home stretch here. Thai Airways, Royal Orchid Plus miles transferable from Citi. That is the first time that I've ever read all those words together, and it's the first time that I've ever known that Thai Airways had transferable points options for Americans. We're forming new sentences every day- We are ... here on the podcast. Uh, up or down on Thai Airways Royal Orchid Plus miles? Gonna say down. Like, I am... This is also the first time I am reading that they have a transfer partner, so. Yeah, I was today years old- ... when I learned that you could transfer Citi points here. That's, that's probably for a good reason. Maybe merits some more exploration. Yeah. But yeah, I got nothing. There's gonna be someone out there just punching their steering wheel being like, "These guys don't even know about Thai Airways Royal Orchid- Yeah ... Plus miles." I mean, let us know. If there's good value, please share. Yeah. Let us know. Turkish Airlines Miles&Smiles are next, transferable from Bilt, Capital One, and Citi. Miles&Smiles, definitely second place for the best named airline program. Um, what do we think about Turkish miles? Can I say meh? I mean, it's the best way to book Turkish Airlines business class. If that's what you really want, that's the best way to do it now because it's pretty much not possible to find very much Turkish award space via partners, but their fees are kinda high, so I don't know. Their customer service isn't Avianca Life Miles bad- Oh ... but it's not that much better. Um, it used to be worth it because you used to be able to book those same Turkish Airlines business class awards from the US to Istanbul for 45,000 miles each way. It's now 65,000. They've also raised award rates on most Star Alliance partner carriers. They cut out the ability to book round-trip flights to Hawaii from 15,000 miles round-trip flying United to 20, and now I think it's 35 or 40,000 miles. I think it's 40,000 miles round-trip. It's just been hit after hit with this program with no- nothing in exchange that got it that our side stayed down. Okay. Two more I suspect we're gonna have feelings on both of them. United Airlines, MileagePlus miles transferable from Bilt and Chase. How do we feel about United here in October 2026? I mean, a year ago I would've said all the way down, but I'm, it's, it's moving up the ranks for me. It's going up. I mean, I'm trying to get under 5/24 so that I can get a United card now, which I don't think I would've ever said before. Same. Yeah. Way up. I, I waffle between whether I'm more bullish on the future of Delta Sky Miles or the future of United Miles with that huge caveat that you absolutely need a United credit card or status, or preferably both, in order to maximize this program. If n- none of those are in the cards for you, move on. Um, but the deals, if you have those things, the discounts you can get are just amazing right now. Yeah. Agreed. I mean, they just have so much availability open to their own cardholders. It's just whenever I look at it I'm like, "Wow, I, I need to get into this more." So feel curious. Absolutely. I'm doing the same thing. I'm, I'm trying to get under 5/24 for the first time in, uh, way longer than 24. So let's talk about Virgin Atlantic Flying Club. Uh, I also lumped in Virgin Red, uh, but to add in the transfer partners, but this is transferable from Amex, Bilt, Capital One, Chase, Citi, and Wells Fargo. If you've got points, they can be transferred to Virgin. How do we feel about Virgin today? Um, it's been up for me. I mean, it's a great way to book Delta flights, and also the fact that their taxes and fees are less, and if you have to cancel, then all you do is lose out on that $5. So for me, it's up overall. It's a great way to book Delta flights. Obviously, we're in a Delta hub, so it's the main way I use it. I'm really torn about this. I would say if I had to pick, I'd say down- Mm-hmm ... because the, the upsides are undeniable. The r- super cheap cancellation if you book a Delta-operated flight is amazing if you're not sure on your plans. If you are sure, 99 times out of 100 it's cheaper to book with Air France KLM Flying Blue miles, and then you layer in the fact that they've raised taxes and fees on their own bookings where a business class flight from the East Coast to London now costs you $700 each way, and even more on the way back. I, I don't think about Virgin Atlantic Flying Club points much anymore. I used to a lot. I, I've written tens of thousands of words about how amazing this program is, and they've chipped away at it bit by bit. So I would say down overall, with some very important caveats. Yeah. I mean, it's a great way to get to Peru. If you want to fly LATAM business class to Peru- Mm ... that's one of the best ways to do it, and the fees are pretty low. So unless you're flying Delta or LATAM, it's like, eh. Yeah, okay. We're torn on Virgin. I also have no idea which way I would go on Virgin. I think I would lean towards being down just because of those taxes and fees on their own bookings, but I'm also super interested in booking LATAM business class at some point, and I'm pretty sure that's the way that I'm gonna have to go ahead and do it. So, uh, also torn. I guess I'll lean and break the tie towards down. That's our full list. Uh, let's recap it. No, I'm kidding. We're not gonna recap at all. Uh, let, let, I just want you guys, from each of you, a takeaway from the list. When you kinda go through this mental exercise of who's up and who's down, what, what comes to mind for you right away? What are some trends we're seeing? I would say that this really accentuates what we say all the time, which is when one door closes, another one opens. Programs are always making these changes, and there's going to be some new program change that comes in that opens up some new redemption that wasn't possible or is better than it was before. That said, I would say there's a lot of airlines that are down bad that are probably down for the count here that aren't going to make many, if any, positive changes. And I think the ones that are winning here, like JAL, like United, like Delta Sky Miles, and a handful of the others, those wins might be temporary. So back to the other thing that we always say is you gotta redeem your miles now. You gotta earn more miles, and you gotta burn them faster because the, the things that have gotten truly better probably are not long for this world. Yeah, 100% agreed on that. I mean, changes are happening all the time. I'm just thinking a year ago, United wasn't really super on my radar, wasn't the thing I was booking with. Japan Airlines barely on our radars. I mean, Finnair, Avios, and Alaska, those are also fantastic, and those have been good, but they just seem even better now because of the changes that all of the other programs have made. So yeah, it's time to earn and burn. Yeah. Absolutely. Maybe a year from now we're doing an emergency podcast about Thai Airways Royal Orchid Plus miles being- Yeah the new can't-miss currency. Hopefully we are. That would be lovely. How's your Thai these days? My Thai, it's weak, but it'll get better if Thai Airways ups their game with, uh, Royal Orchid Plus. Let's, uh, help a listener. Um, Bill from the premium Slack group asked us to react to a recent article from Travel + Leisure about ditching your travel companions in the security line if they don't have TSA PreCheck. He asks, "I saw this article today and wondered what others thought. My opinion is that it's rude to leave your travel companion regardless of who they are." Okay, Kyle and Katie, I need your reactions. Katie, you've been on a few group trips this year. You are your group trip captain. What is your policy on ditching your friends at PreCheck? Well- I h- I have been known to ditch my friends in Pre-Check. I am not above this, and I honestly don't think it's that big of a deal. I mean, if the line's short, they'll make it through in, like, 10 minutes after you. It's not that big of a deal. And honestly, it kind of has its upsides, especially if you're going to the lounge. Just say, "Hey, I'm gonna go get us this, a spot in the lounge, get you a drink," and everyone's good. See you there, and you're already ready. Um, I did do... Two of my, me and another friend did leave one of our friends in the TSA line this last, our Iceland trip. But I will make it up because we did not leave her in the Global Entry line. Or we had Global Entry, and she did not, so we waited with her in the other line, but it was really short. So I don't know. I'm not above leaving people. Kyle? The only honest answer I can give you is it depends on the companion. Yes. And I will just leave it up to the people in my life to decide which, which side of the coin they're gonna be on when we ultimately get in this position. I remember, uh, I was on my buddy's ski trip with my high school friends a few years ago. It was the Gunnar Olsen, Olsen, Olsen debacle with Avianca. Um, when I finally got my name fixed, the, the name and my KTN name didn't match. So my Pre-Check number did not go onto my boarding pass for my Swiss flight to Geneva. And my buddies, who I've been telling about this new awesome job I have as a travel expert, were, like, so excited to travel with me, and they walked by in the Pre-Check line and saw me and Jen pop at terminal one at JFK. And they were like, "What is this guy doing?" Some expert. Yeah, some expert. So I've been ditched for that even though I had Pre-Check at the time- Well- which is the worst-case scenario. Well done, guys. Thank you. If you'd like us to answer- No, not, not you, your friends. If you want us to answer your questions on the podcast or if you have any feedback, hit us up at podcast@thriftytraveler.com. We might feature your question on next week's show. Okay, we've been waiting all episode now, and it's time t- for you to unveil this epic travel mistake. And I would just love to hear it, so I'm not the only one- I guess the question is do you want to share it with us? Yes, I can share. I will share so that no one else makes the same mistake I did. After Googling online, I've realized I'm not the only one that has done this. But, you know, before we got on our little road trip part, I was like, "Okay, let me just top off the gas tank." So pulled up to this gas station, and there's four different pumps Which is, I don't know, kind of a lot. But one of 'em had like a s- a semi truck on it, so I'm like, "Okay, it's not that one." One of 'em said diesel, and I was like, "Okay, it's not that one," 'cause the car just was regular gas. Then there were two other ones. There was one that was green, and it said E95, and I was like, "Ah, I don't know. It doesn't look right." And there was another blue one, and it said AdBlue, and I was like, "Okay, well it's probably that one," 'cause the green one just didn't feel right. So I just grabbed it, and I got like a liter in from like filling it. Then I was like, "What am I doing? Why didn't I just Google this?" And so I stopped, and I just Googled really quick, and it was diesel. It was not unleaded gasoline. So, um- Diesel, diesel fuel. Yeah. Not great for unleaded cars- No ... it turns out. No. It's not recommended to put in there. So I was Googling what to do, and essentially you just have to call someone, and they have to siphon all of the gas out of the tank. And mind you, this was basically full. Oh, no. So, um- Also- Had to get it all out ... Iceland, not a cheap place to do anything- Yeah. ... especially fuel up a car. No, not cheap. So I called like the little roadside assistance number that was on the little Hertz card that they gave me. And they're like, "Okay." And so they sent me all of the information. I had to like make a request, and they sent a truck out. And the guy comes up, and he's like, "Okay, like- Um, we'll, we'll take care of it for you. And so we're just chatting 'cause it took a while to get it all out. So he's like, "Where are you from? The US?" And I was like, "Yes, I am." How did- I was like, "How did you know?" However did you know? Yeah. And he's like, "Well, I can see how you th- made this mistake, because in the US the diesel is green and the unleaded is the other color." And I was like, "Okay." Made me feel a little bit better. At least validated in the fact that the green one just didn't look right to me. So anyway, got it all out, filled it back up, get on the road, good to go. You know, five minutes into driving I'm getting this warning sign flashing on my dash, and I was like, "Oh, no. What is it?" And it was like, "You need to check the hybrid mode. Please pull over safely. There's something wrong." So it's a hybrid car, so I guess when you take all the gas out, the battery just, like, tanks. Oh. And so the ba- like the hybrid part of the car was, like, not talking to, like, the, the regular part of the car, I guess. I, I don't claim any expertise in cars. I only- On the flight. We don't expect that fr- from you here. Clearly, yeah. So, you know, I'm trying different things. I'm googling different resets or just anything that could potentially fix this problem. Tried, like, five different things. W- I would, like, drive like 100 feet just to see if the warning would come back on, and it would. And eventually it just wouldn't even drive that 100 feet. Oh, no. So I was like, "Okay. After I just paid all this money to refill up the car and, um, get the person out here to take all it, the fuel out, um, I now have to pay for a tow truck- Oh to come tow the car." Oh, no. So called the tow truck, takes it away, drops us off at the Hertz location to get a new car, and that's the last I saw of the car, so I have no idea if I'll have other charges. I'm hoping I won't, because after googling it was like it's probably just, like, a code that they need to clear out of the system. Yeah. Because, I mean, I got the new fuel in and it drove for like five minutes, so it was fine. So long story short, just don't do that. It, I lost, like, half a day on the trip figuring this stuff out. Um, you know, it's kind of expensive. Wasn't cheap. Luckily, I'm not, you know, not dead. So we're, we're good. We continued on with the trip. Um, I submitted everything to the credit card insurance. I don't know. I haven't heard anything back from them. I was reading and basically it was like most insurances only cover collision damage or, like, stuff that happens, like, the body of the car, like, because of an accident, like a... But this was just my own error. So anyway, long story short, don't do that. And, um, check your car, like, your credit card rental car insurance to see what it covers and what it doesn't cover. Sometimes I've heard that some credit cards don't cover anything in Iceland, so just look. I know Ireland is also a big one, but some are Iceland, so- Wow just do some research. That, that is an amazing new entry into the travel mistakes- Yeah ... uh, lexicon. It's a new primer. The Thrifty Traveler Podcast. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. My, my main takeaway is Iceland, great for long weekend trips if you don't put diesel- Yeah ... in your car. Yep. Yep. Just take the three-second Google. Yeah. Just, just ta- even take a picture of it and just, you know, upload it to ChatGPT, "Which one should I use?" Not that hard, but I just decided to guess for some reason. So Katie- So- ... not a car expert, but definitely- No. ... a points and miles expert. To close the show, as always, we go on the spot, and because we invite- invited Katie in, uh, Katie's gonna put us on the spot. What do you have, Katie? All right, so we're gonna go with a good old fashioned would you rather. Okay. So would you rather only be able to stay in shared hostel rooms when traveling, but be able to fly business or first class anywhere you wanna go or wherever you go, or only be able to fly in the middle seat of economy on a low-cost carrier, but be able to stay in luxury hotels wherever you go? Wow, I think I know my answer. You go first 'cause I do not. I'll take the middle seat in economy for the luxury accommodations. Uh, although, I mean, bunking up in the hostel does sound like a lot of fun, you know? Um, but I don't know if I, if the people in the hostel would be excited to be staying with my infant daughter. Uh, but I think I'll take the middle seat and the luxury accommodations. Yeah, I would, I would go the same. I think you can, you can kinda get through anything. Uh, getting through the hostel experience right now at my age and my interest level in that experience sounds a lot worse than the middle seat in economy right now. Plus, you're still getting somewhere cool- Yep ... no matter how you fly there. That's, that's what we're about. There's no wrong way to fly. Is there a wrong way to stay and book accommodations? I don't know. Maybe. What's your answer? Depends on the person. My answer is the same. Okay. I, you will not catch me dead staying in a shared hostel room. I, yeah, I value my peace and quiet much too much to share a room with other people that I do not know. Yes. That's just how I feel. Look, I am not above at all, in fact, I love a $80 hotel night at a two or three-star hotel, but it is my own room, and I value that- Yeah ... a lot. Yeah, but, w- that's why I specified shared hostel room. Yeah. There you go. 'Cause you can book your own room in some hostels- Mm-hmm ... which is good. But yeah, I'd rather sit in the middle seat every single flight for the rest of my life instead of doing that. That's a good one. Everyone sound off in the Thrifty Traveler Podcast Slack. Um, maybe I'll put the prompt in there and we can see what everybody thinks. Uh- Yep ... shared hostels and/or middle economy seats for the rest of your life. Katie, this was so fun. Thank you so much for joining the show. And, and, uh, thanks as always for the incredible flight deals and hotel deal alerts you give us every single day with Thrifty Traveler Premium. We are very grateful. I'm sure everybody who's listening has at least been tantalized by booking one of your deals, so thank you for all of your hard work. Would you come on the show again sometime? Yeah, of course. I'd love to. This was so fun. All right. Thank you all so much for listening to Thrifty Traveler Podcast. Rate us five stars on your platform of choice, and like and subscribe to the show on YouTube. Send this episode to someone you know who needs a vacation. If you have feedback for us, send me a note at podcast@thriftytraveler.com. We would love to hear from you. Kyle, tell us about the team. This episode was produced by your favorite host, the newest member of Thai Airways Royal Orchid Plus, Gunnar Olsen. It was produced and edited by Sylvia Thomas and edited by Kyle Thomas. Our theme music is by Benjamin Tissot. See you next week. See ya